Week 1 Session – Shakespeare’s “Richard II” – the king deposed (Act 4, Sc 1) – The Rehearsal Room [Video, Audio, and Transcript versions]

Week 1 – Richard II – The King Deposed – The Rehearsal Room

Nathan: I’m Nathan Agin. Welcome to the Working Actors Journey rehearsal room. We started this project already. It’s been four years. Over four years, June 2020. It came out of what we could do with all the time during the pandemic. we found that having the time to deeply explore just one scene over several weeks has really excited everybody involved. and this month we are embarking on a scene from Shakespeare’s Richard ii. It’s the first time we are working on this play, in the rehearsal room. Very excited. It’s really beautiful play. Think it has the most verse. it might be 100% verse. It’s pretty close. of all of Shakespeare’s plays. So that’s great. and I will say, you know, for those familiar with John Barton’s Playing Shakespeare series that they did in like the late 70s, maybe even early 80s, I see this as kind of a springboard off of that. This is an unscripted format. and in fact theirs was heavily scripted. They really figured out what they were going to say before they turned the cameras on. So this is really raw. You really get to see what’s going on. The wonderful way, that the creative process comes alive in real time. for those who are new here, what you’re going to see is not, you know, a final performance or hasn’t been rehearsed before this. Maybe the actors and director and dramaturg have thought about it, read it, but you know, it’s all it’s all ready to be explored together. it’s just a continued work in progress from week to week. it’s an opportunity for artists of different generations, backgrounds to collaborate, learn from one another. and what I love is that it’s never been a top down structure. This, you know, good ideas can come from anywhere. And I think theater at its best is like that. It’s a true collaborative, art form. I, do believe that the rehearsal room, these kinds of spaces continues, the great theatrical history of apprenticeship. People such as yourselves watching can learn from, you know, professionals, people working people who’ve been doing this 20, 30, 40 more years. How do they break down text? What are the questions to ask? How do you explore and communicate? How do you take direction? How do you give direction? all those great things can be part of this and hopefully you can come away from this learning some tips and tricks, and ideas and strategies for your own work. we can be more conscious about Casting here, when it comes to gender or age or race than Peter sometimes can be. We can explore things in different ways, which is a lot of fun. and we can bring artists together from all over the place. I know we have a number of people in Los Angeles, tonight, but then we also have an actor out in Hawaii. So through the miracle of this technology, we can bring everybody together in the same room and they can all work on the material. so that’s pretty much what we’re doing here. If you want to support the, project, right now, as you probably can tell if you’re on YouTube or the podcast, all of our sessions that we’re releasing are for free for you to just enjoy and learn from. So if you want, to support, that’s great. You can go do that through Patreon. But be sure to subscribe to YouTube, and the podcast so you can get notifications of new stuff coming out. It, starts just $5 per month. Super affordable for the whole month. And you get a lot of sessions and good stuff. So I’ll quickly say thank you to some of our patrons. Joan, Michelle, Jim, Magdalene, Ivar, Claudia, Cliff and Jeff. Thank you so much for helping to keep the administrative lights on. that is my, pt, Barnum, little spiel. I’m all done here. I, will turn it over to the artists so you guys can get into the material. if you have any questions and you’re watching this on YouTube, post them below. We’ll try to keep people, aware of that and keep the conversation going offline. So that is it. I’ll ask the group to do some quick introductions, of themselves and just briefly where you are, your history, maybe with this play, if you have one, and, what your involvement, is for the next few weeks. And that’s it. I’m going to head to the back of the theater. I will see you guys at the end and, have a great session.

Will: Thanks, Nathan. so I guess, I mean, because Nick and Jamal, I’ve never met you before. I guess let’s just start off with the introduction. So to sort of take that ball from Nathan. I think that sounds great. So I guess, who are you? Who are you playing? what’s your previous involvement with the show? And I think, because normally, obviously, if we were in person, we’d go around the circle. But since we are literally in a flat circle on this screen, I’d say let’s go with a popcorn model. So once you’re done. Just toss it over to somebody. So I’ll start us off. my name’s Will Block. I’m an actor, producer, director, teacher. and I’m the artistic director of the Porters of Hellsgate Theatre Company in Los Angeles, California. I’m directing this. And, I’ve played Richard II. I did it when I was 22. so I will not speak to the quality of the work that happened. and with that, I’ll toss it over to Jamal. Hey, hey. Hey.

Jamal: It’s really good to be here. My name’s Jamal Douglas. I’m an actor, educator, artist, Soulful being first. And, I actually saw this production in London after I left the old globe back in 2015. And I was completely a different person back then. and so it’s exciting to be walking back into this

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Jamal: with new eyes wide open. and I feel like I’m starting from one, as I like to do, you know, with Shakespearean histories and going to school for. You can get so up in your head and out of your body, or two in your body and not in your head. And so I’m completely open. I’m really curious, as an actor, to explore the nuance of relationship through the poetry that is being said. And so that’s what’s vibrating for me, walking into this space, this time around, and my first time working on the show ever and putting my mouth to these words. And when I was reading through it, I was hit with emotion and certain parts physically. And so I’m excited to see how that unfolds and how that sustains or shifts the change. And I’m going to throw it to Nick.

Nick: Thanks, Jamal. My name is Nick Cagle. I have seen and worked on this particular play before, and it’s. I think it’s one of the most beautiful plays that I’ve ever read. I really, really enjoy the poetry. they did a production of it when I was in college, in London. I went to Lambda and another group did a production on that. And I was shocked and mesmerized by it. And then I was lucky enough to work on it in Christchurch, New Zealand in 2010. And, that was quite some time ago. So it’s been really great for the last couple of days to sort of try to wrap my head around it again. And it’s a never ending exploration of these plays, which is one of my favorite things about them, is you can read them and read them and read them and still never get to the bottom. so I’m really looking forward to this. I think that we’re sort of switching back and forth on roles. I’m not exactly sure who will end up playing, which is exciting. And, I’m grateful to be here with all of you, and thanks for having me.

Will: And I’ll toss it up. Miranda, why don’t you close this out?

Miranda: Yes, sure.

Miranda Johnson Haddad is working on Shakespeare’s The Tempest

Hi, everyone. I’m Miranda Johnson Haddad. I’m the resident drama target in Noise Within Theater in Pasadena. And then I’ve been the guest touring, for other shows. But my approach to, dramaturgy is through the Academy. my academic field is Shakespeare, and in particular, Shakespeare in performance. Because, I am always aware Will’s heard me say this more times than he can count. But the plays were, their text. It’s valuable, certainly, to study them as texts, but they were written as scripts, and I believe they don’t really become complete until they are in performance. So I always feel, a debt of gratitude to actors, whether it’s on a zoom screen or in the theater who are. Who are helping bring, that play to, completion. this is my third time in the rehearsal room with Nathan. I’m thrilled to be working on this play. It’s been one of my favorites. Always when people ask me, what’s your favorite Shakespeare play? I cheat. The best I can say is my favorite play in any genre. And this is hands down my favorite history play. but the history plays are a lot more interesting than I think popular understanding believes them to be. And, so I’m very excited to be bringing this one, bringing this one into, at least partial completion. And just in case anyone was wondering, Miranda is my real name. As I like to say, did my parents have their wits about them or what? So, really happy to be here with.

Will: All you admired, Miranda. well, thank you, everyone, for being here and for saying yes to this. so I’m going to talk at you for as little time as I can manage. Miranda has suffered through more than one rehearsal process with me and so knows that I am extremely long winded. Nick, and Jamal, you’re about to discover that, and I’m so sorry.

Miranda: and plenty of pop culture references, friends, Tolkien, Harry Potter, whatever it may be. I laugh at all his jokes. I get them. I think they’re funny.

Will: I direct in Star wars references. But I’ll yap at you for a little bit. I’ll toss it over to Miranda, who would never say it herself, but is truly like an expert, like, is such a fantastic resource to have in the room. and then we’re just going to dive in and we’re just going to start messing around with some text. so, chose this scene. I just closed a repertory production of Henry iv, parts one and two. my company, we’re supposed to do all of them. And it was time to do the fours. And it was a massive undertaking and a very rewarding experience. And part of that we did a, ah, staged reading of Richard ii. I say staged. We did an unrehearsed reading of Richard II that went off very, very well because we got good actors, but I did absolutely nothing to make it good. just, to give our audiences context because this is, as everyone in this room knows, this is the first play in an eight play history cycle. and Henry iv, while being Miranda, I love Richard ii. Henry IV might be my favorite two history plays, but Richard II is a very, very close second for me. and really, I mean, in my head it’s all one long play. But, Henry iv, pretty much everything, that happens in Henry IV has its genesis in this beautiful play. and as I said, I’d done the play when I was very, very young and I’d had a great time. but I was reminded of just what a beautiful, lyrical tragedy it is. I feel like if this play is programmed, it is programmed in the context of the Guthrie just did Richard ii, Henry IV

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Will: and Henry V in a three show rep. and it’s often programmed as the prequel, when the play stands on its own as a beautiful piece of writing, and is a really sort of, I would say a profound meditation on multiple fronts. and that’s Shakespeare in a nutshell, isn’t it? I mean, he’s always working on the macro, but he’s always working on the micro. Right. I think it is in terms of contemporary resonance. I think the histories taken as a whole, and I’ll sort of wear my socialist badge proudly on my arm today, but the histories taken as a whole, I think to me, resonate most acutely when they are examined as an investigation into the corrosive effect that power has on the human condition. that the real conflict in all of these plays is male versus crown, or woman versus crown, as casting may be. We had a. We played Henry IV as a woman and she did a beautiful job. So I don’t, I don’t. I say. I say man is sort of Like a catch all human versus crown, soul versus crown, right? Is it possible for a person to maintain their humanity while wearing that kind of absolute power? and the thing that strikes me, looking at all of them, and I say the eight play, I’m not including King John or Henry VIII in this. But if you look at, if you look at the Henriette, right? every king that we meet, we get to see them both as a king and as not a king, right? In some. Not always in the same order. But we get to see them outside of that authority and inside of that authority. And every single one of them has a beautiful speech that are all variations on the theme of, well, this sucks. in this play, it’s the hollow crown, Henry iv. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown Henry V upon the king. Henry VI might be my favorite, the homely Swain. and then Richard III even has his own little version right before the.

Jamal: Battle of Oz revealed.

Will: So clearly we’re dealing, like Shakespeare’s investigation is how do these people deal with this unnatural imposition, upon their humanity? And Richard, in relation to that investigation, is a really interesting play because we see one man start as king and end as, well, dead, but end as not king. and then you have one. The other person starts the other king. Henry IV starts as not a commoner but not king and ends the play as the king. so you’ve got this, you’ve got this seesaw effect, right? You have. And this is the scene, right? This is the scene where power is handed from one to the other. other things I just want to. I’m sort of. I also wrapped, wrapped up in that, is what is, you know, what is the nature of identity, right? And I think this is where the universal resonance and the sort of the micro starts to come in, right? The macro is how does this kind of pressure aff a person? How does this kind of power affect the person, which some of us can relate to, some of us can’t. but where we get into the universality of it is how does your position in society affect your sense of identity? Right. it’s the beautiful line in the scene. I know no, I for I must no thing be. That’s not a line reading. We’re going to play around with that. But, Richard gives up his assumed sense of self and we are dealing with a man who has been king since he was nine years old, and has been told every day since then that he was God’s anointed. He’s God’s chosen. He can do no wrong. But we are also dealing with a uniquely perceptive mind, an insecure mind, an insecure heart. I think at the end of the day, a pretty terrified person from the word God. but we are also dealing with somebody who is possessed with the same level of perception and the same ability to comment on his surroundings with devastating accuracy that is famously noted in, like, Hamlet. Right? The only difference is this man is born with a crown. and this is the scene where he gives it up and he gives it. And the other. The only other thing that I’m gonna. That I want to sort of make a note of, just because it leapt out at me listening to this reading, was that at no point is the crown demanded of him. And I think this speaks to his perception, right, that the very first person in this play to bring up the idea of an abdication is Richard when he is confronted by Bolingbroke. now that could be read, and there’s room for plenty of discussion, but that could be read as either him lying down and giving up, or that could be read as, again, an extremely perceptive mind, seeing which way the wind is blowing. And, no, this is only ever going to go one way. And so what emerges is this really fascinating story of somebody who, when he was king, was not indecisive, but certainly irresponsible, certainly spent too much time listening to his yes men. insulated himself from hard truths. now faces the hardest truth of all, that his reign is coming to an end and there is nothing he can do about it, really.

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Will: And through that, through calling that situation out and through speaking honestly, is able to regain a certain amount of power. this is an abdication scene. Richard dominates it in terms of just lines on the page, and through it is able to deliver not just some of the most beautiful language in the play, but some of the cattiest language in the play. and some of the, you know, he wipes the floor with the people around him. He absolutely walks out of this scene.

Nathan: Possibly.

Will: I mean, but, you know, we’ll leave it open to interpretation. But in terms of what’s on the text, he walks out of the scene with a mic drop. so how do you get that person to that place? And what is it about this thing that they’re wearing now in terms of who’s playing who? Because I know that is a question mark. you are both playing both. So we’ve got two sessions ahead of us, and we can talk about how we’re going to split up our time, but essentially you know, to sort of. To call back to Nathan’s earlier reference to the playing Shakespeare. This is our night of the Dueling Richards. so you are, you are both going to play Richard and you are both going to play Bolingbroke. probably, I think in terms of today, we’ll probably switch. my thought is that I’d like to spend today sort of looking at the text and making sure that we’ve got a good handle on exactly what we’re saying because it is beautiful language. But I think the danger, and I don’t have to time, I don’t have to tell you this, everyone in this room is a seasoned professional. But just to say it, I think the danger when working on really gorgeous language is that we can rely on the beauty of the language to carry us and we don’t get down to the sense of it. And I think that the, the really sort of the interesting line that this play walks is that we are always, yes, it is beautiful. But, ah, there’s still a game being played and there’s still this, it is still argumentation. and especially in this scene. So I want to make sure that we’ve got a very clear sense of that. And then I think probably the way that we will structure this is we will one day Jamal will be playing Richard, Nick will be playing Bolingbroke and then the following session we’ll flip flop him. and through that, you know, in terms of like the production or in terms of like what your Richard or what your Bolingbroke is, we’re going to discover that together today is about getting sort of our sea legs under us when it comes to what we’re saying. And then from there I kind of, I don’t want to. The only thing I’ll say in the playing of it is I don’t know that either of you need to worry about putting anything on for these characters. Let’s see what happens if Jamal is. What is Jamal as Richard and Jamal as Bolingbroke. And what is Nick as Richard and Nick as Bolingbroke? this is sort of mirroring a very famous mirror. This is mirroring a very famous production from the RSA in 1974, I want to say, where Richard Pasco and Ian Richardson alternated the title role. So this has a performance precedent. it sounds like a backbreaking amount of work. but again, and this is, I hope this is One of the last things that I say before I turn it over to the brilliant Miranda Johnson had had, is mirror. And this is the last. Mirrors and self regard, are sort of recurring themes. Richard is frequently described as. Even after he’s dead, long after he’s dead. Richard is described as vain. Richard is described as shallow. In Henry iv, he’s described as the skipping king. and, of course there’s the conversation about, well, how much of that is history actively being written by the victor. but there is in this play, and this is. We are in. It’s interesting. I just finished listening to Simon Russell Beale’s autobiography. And he played Richard ii, very late in life. He played it after he played King Lear. but he played Richard ii in late 2019. And he said that, like, they had no idea the resonance that this play was going to take on. But they did it in sort of the last year before COVID redefined how we engage with the world. Right. And that it ended up retroactively working in this really beautiful metatheatrical way. Because that is exactly what’s happening in Richard ii. The only other thing that I want to throw at you guys is that Richard is the last of the kings who can actually say, I am anointed by God, right? Because Bolingbroke, whether or not Richard is a good king, Bolingbroke is a usurper. and it is Bolingbroke’s status as a usurper that is the engine behind the entirety of the wars of the Roses all the way to Richard iii, right? It’s that random guy, Mortimer, right, Who’s in one scene in Henry IV, Part 1. Everybody thinks they’re trying to put Hotspur on the throne. They’re trying to put Edmund Mortimer on the throne. He’s in one scene in Henry iv, Part one. I think I can swear on this. He fucks off for three plays and then comes back in one scene in Henry VI, Part 1 to tell his nephew, Richard, future Duke of

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Will: York, that he’s the actual heir to the throne. And then he dies. Which might mean that Edmund Mortimer is like the most troublesome character in this entire eight play cycle. What a shit. but anyways, that is truly beside the point. it is this sort of cardinal sin. It’s this breaking of the world, that is the engine behind 100 years of bloodshed in English history. And it is behind the schism. And I think it is testament to Shakespeare’s, generosity of spirit and is testament, I think, To Shakespeare’s or whoever wrote them, the company. They were a team effort. But it is testament to this play’s generosity of spirit that at no point is the actual act of deposition taken out of context. We are shown just how bad of a King Richard is. We are shown just how justified this is. and everyone gets to go home and make their own decision. All right, I’ve talked enough. Miranda.

Miranda: thanks, Will. That was great. I agree with every single thing you said. and I’m mulling over a couple of things. Some of the. When you talk about gender and how we can play around with casting. M. The great Fiona Shaw, of course, very famously played Richard in the. I want to say. What was it? 1990? 1996? The mid-1990s. Directed by Deborah Warner. And that you can find that production to watch as well. I tracked it down during COVID and that’s remarkable. And then, of course, more recently, Harriet, Walter, played, Henry iv, in a, trio of films put on by all female casts. the Tempest, both parts of Henry iv condensed, and, Julius Caesar. so thank you for reminding me of that. just very quickly about history and just sort of leaping off from what Will was saying. this play is so extraordinary, I think, because, I agree 100% that we are shown that Richard is a bad king and worthy of being deposed. And yet, It also sets into motion, as you say, this, Series of, unfortunate events that just become worse and worse and worse with each king. Until finally we have Richard iii. And, he was overcome by, of course, by Henry vii, by Henry Tudor, thus ending the wars of the Roses, which, of course, was not what people said during the time. They did not walk around saying, here we are, you know, fighting the wars of the Roses, despite that silly scene in, Henry vi when they’re pulling off a red rose and a white rose. So the sort of, as you say, the victor gets to write. Gets to write history. and yet, Richard was certainly, an irresponsible, Ah, irresponsible king. and yet he was also God’s anointed. And I think what’s so fascinating to me is that. Is that Shakespeare, writes this play and tells that particular story and which balances, on the edge of a Knife. and the Deposition scene in particular was really, literally almost just considered too hot to handle. It was not performed originally when the play was performed at the Globe, very famously, when the Earl of Essex, in 1601 tried to, raise up a rebellion against Queen, Elizabeth. Elizabeth I. He commissioned, the Lord Chamberlain’s Men, Shakespeare’s troop, to perform, Richard ii with the deposition scene in it. And he failed to muster the requisite support. he was arrested and he was executed for his role, in that rebellion. And Elizabeth is purported. Reported to have remarked irritably but understandably. To, one of her counselors. I am Richard ii. Know ye not that so. Just the way that history, you know, history begets art begets history. And the intersection I think of history and of art in this play in particular and in the Henrys as well, Really, really fascinates me. as Nathan mentioned, it’s all verse. There’s a line of prose in it. and this scene in particular, I think, is, So full of theatrical and dramatic potential. There’s just so many. So many ways you can go. But as Will says, Richard really does, dominate the scene. and yet there are so many moments in which that can be expressed. When I would teach this play to undergraduates. Or sometimes I repeat this technique when I’m teaching teachers. as I do sometimes. It annoys within with the undergraduates. I went to my local toy store. I got one of those little sort of fake kitty crowns. and had them staging it. And just. Just to have the physical embodiment of a crown in the classroom. It just made it all so real for them. And I think for us, as well it can. When we are picturing this here cousin sees the crown, and then what does he do? Does he hold onto the crown? just countless possibilities. and, I also want to mention that as a performance critic. I’m constantly thinking about other productions I

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Miranda: have seen of the choices in the moment. If I bring something like that up, it’s just to give us another possibility to reflect upon. And if I’m getting to be a pain with doing that too much or it’s being oppressive, just tell me, you know. Great, Miranda. Thank you so much. Let’s move on. because one reason I like to think why I’m able to be helpful as a dramaturg. Is that I’m very, very clear about where my gifts end and yours begin. I’m not a director. I’m not an actor. And. And, I offer things in the spirit of. As well, collaboration and of discussion. But that said, I’m just elated to be working on this play. It is the second tetralogy that Shakespeare wrote. Even though chronologically these are the events that come first. But he wrote the first tetralogy, the three parts of Henry VI and Richard iii. He wrote that, earlier. And indeed Henry. Parts of Henry vi, we think, are a collaboration. but this one, you can tell he was really sort of hitting his stride. Probably written around 1595, 1596. He was writing Midsummer. He was really, I think, beginning, to branch out, to be braver as an artist. And you can really see it in the. As well as the lyrical, just gorgeousness of the verse. It’s just one of the most beautiful plays, I think, linguistically of any of them.

Miranda: So just a few historical points there. I can add others as we go along. But, I’m here in service of all of you, which is, I think, the dramaturg’s role. And, as another dramaturg who’s been active longer than I have. Ah, says the basic role of the dramaturg is to provide information. and the main qualification is you have to love theater. So, that I have, grateful to my parents who took us to theater when we were very young. And I will say, Will you know this, I think that the very first Shakespeare production I ever saw, I was 11 years old, was in Stratford on Avon in England, and it was the Peter Brook Midsummer Night’s dream. Yeah. In 1970. I was 11, as I say. And that was just so revolutionary, not just in terms of how we understand, Midsummer, but how we understand and perform, Shakespeare. And, it was a great. It was a great beginning. So I’m really happy to be here, everybody.

Will: I didn’t know that. Miranda.

Miranda: You haven’t heard me say that in all the times you’ve listened to me natter on or.

Will: I’ve had, like, a thou. I’ve had a couple. I don’t know. For some reason, I remember that. That’s insane.

Miranda: Yeah, it really was pretty. Pretty amazing because that was the first play that did the double casting, of course, and, Yeah, really was remarkable. Yeah. Great way to. Great way to get started on what, for me, has been a lifelong joy.

Will: Thank you, Miranda. It’s excellent to have you here.

Miranda: Thank you.

Will: all right, well, friends, before we start reading, we’ve sort of been chatting to you, and I want to make sure to establish right from the get go that, this is a conversation. So, before we dive into reading the text, I just wanted to open up to Nikit Jamal and see either of you guys either did that sort of resonate with you or spark anything or were there anything that we want to discuss as actors at the top before we dive in? Everything is fair game.

Jamal: Absolutely. I’m loving the conversation. I’m someone that likes to receive as much information as possible because I kind of exist out there in the esoteric ether. And so bringing things back to town, back to the ground is, like, important for me with information, because I feel more than I know, which I think is a gift of mine. And you were speaking about mirrors and these universal things that are going on here. And I started thinking about that. What time are you the king within, right? Because that affects what is the soul of the people and the awareness. And sometimes you can be ahead of the times, yet still a messenger, though foolish, you know? And I think about, like, mystical tales, like, you know, like the tarot deck, right? The tower falling is actually a great thing. It’s a blessing. Just like the fool is actually a freedom sense, not the fool. And so those images of that mirror comes up for me as I look at what King Richard is saying in this piece. And then looking at the time and in the mirror of our time, right? You know, like, everybody wants freedom, but the way we want it, it looks differently in this time. And so there’s a mirror, I think, that exists within this and the wonderful language in this piece that exists through all generations or through all times, if your eyes are open or not. and so I like that aspect of it because there’s a lot of deep spiritual, universal concepts that exist within King Richard. And it seems like he’s in the midst of that questioning while still knowing is that dark night of the soul? Is that

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Jamal: Buddha leaving the castle and everything that they have and choosing to give it up to be no thing, nothing, which is a spiritual concept. and in that time, you know, we’ve had president, I think about Marianne Williamson, right, running for president. It’s like, oh, you too spiritual for us, baby girl. Go over there. Like, we not there yet. We’re not there yet. This universe, no, that’s not this town. We might gotta fight. No, no, no, no, no. And so those are things that are coming up for me in the universal mirror Again, if your eyes are open or not, you see what you see. And I think that’s all beautiful, which is why men make what makes humanity in the soul so complex, yet it’s all one dancing together to make whatever happens next. and so I love the questioning in the middle path that this seems to be on a strong choice, but still a questioning and that’s the whole concept of being nothing, knowing something, but also remembering that I don’t know it all, because I can’t. And to be willing to say it is why I think this is all profound. He says the things that we dream about and wake up thinking about, but feel too afraid or ashamed or too in the unknowing void space to know, to put words to it. But he puts words to what stills the room and what wakes up the audience. And so it makes sense why it wasn’t performed. Because I think at one point, because people probably weren’t ready. I don’t think. I think we’re more ready now in our world, but as a totality in the large, still not ready. And so, those are things coming up for me beneath the surface, being a feeler first. And so throw all the information at me, throw history at me. I’ll probably be digesting it all today and more quiet or not. I’m long winded too. But those are things coming up for me in this space and time.

Will: No, I love everything you just said. And I also want to. I want to sort of say, Nathan, ah. If we’re titling these episodes, what time are you? The King within, is absolutely. I think, would be a phenomenal episode title. And I think, really, I mean, it cuts sort of. Right? Because I think it does. It cuts right to the core of this. Right. And. And I’m glad that you brought that up too, because that was something I. Sorry. I have so much coffee in me right now, my brain is like crap. just, to sort of build on that a little bit is that seeing and knowing are two recurring because of the mirror. And I love that you also sort of brought up this idea of mist. Right. Because I think. Exactly. Right. Like, Richard, what Richard says in the scene stops the room cold. Right. And how much of that is because he’s, like, seeing. How much of that is because he’s seeing himself and seeing everyone around him clearly. Right. There are lies that we tell ourselves and we tell each other so that we can all just, like, get on with our days. And then there’s. There’s sometimes there’s that one person who stands up and says, actually, Yeah, I love that. Jamal. Excellent, excellent. Nick, Anything?

Nick: Yeah. I, too, was thinking about the mirrors. I was thinking about sort of. There’s almost a switch that happens. And Miranda, you can help me with this. It’s been a while since I’ve worked in this play, but it seems that the audience could Nearly be against Richard in the beginning of this play and for Bolingbroke. And then there’s a shift that happens somewhere in the middle where we realize as, Richard almost begins to take on a heroism and Bolingbroke’s usurpation becomes, you know, The audience becomes aware of the negativity involved in something like that. And it’s so interesting to me. I didn’t know very much about the story that they put on this play in front of Queen Elizabeth when there was almost a talk, you know, a discussion about taking her crown from her. You brought that up. And I had heard that story a little bit before. But how fascinating that they used this piece of art and played it for her right before that.

Miranda: Yeah. And Essex, of course, had been the, ah, Earl of Essex, had been one of her favorites. so for him to lead this rebellion against her and then her sense of betrayal and so on. So it really exists, I think, this play on multiple levels. The historical facts, whatever they actually were. you know, there’s an element of it, I think, that was Tudor propaganda, certainly by the. By the Tudor historians. then there’s just the power of art and spirituality, which Richard. I agree with you 100% with Jamal and Nick. Richard becomes at the end somehow, paradoxically. But he becomes, I feel, more, He has more depth and more poetry and in a sense, more soul than Bolingbroke. I saw a production once where the final scene was Bolingbroke, Henry IV on the throne, and just piles of shrouded, bloodstained bodies just piling up around him, which was, pretty significant. And given then what his reign went on to be. So. Yeah, so it’s a very. It’s a remarkable

00:35:00

Miranda: thing, I think, that it was used in this way and that this scene in particular that we’re, thinking about together was seen as just. It was unperformable until it wasn’t, you know.

Will: Well. And it’s very Catholic, isn’t it? I mean, he is very like. I mean, a. That would be the religion at the time. But Richard, time and again, is sort of like painting himself as some sort of martyr. Which, again, like, again, at the time is such a dangerous thing to do because, like, it’s the Catholic.

Jamal: And.

Will: Well, like, I never thought of this until you started talking. But, like, Bolingbroke sort of seems to, like, uphold, all of the, like, Protestant values of, like, practicality and, accessibility. And, you know, it’s. Timothy west was, Ian McKellen’s Bolingbroke. And he described himself as a red wine actor to Ian McKellen’s white wine actor. But I wonder, like. But that’s kind of the thing. It’s like Bolingbroke starts off. We start off trusting Bolingbroke because he’s one of the guys, right? And he’s more accessible and he talks our language, right? And then he gets to the throne. We realize he’s not actually going to do the common people any more good than Richard. And Richard is all like iconography and he’s sort of remote and he’s sort of. He’s entirely reliant on this relationship with God to justify his. His place too. But, yeah, I’m just realizing even from that point, I mean, and you know, I think everyone, like Shakespeare’s. What was it? His paternal grandfather was executed as part of a Catholic plot. Like there’s, there’s evidence.

Miranda: Well, there’s some theory that his father was a recusant who paid the fines to not go to Protestant mass. but before that I, you know, I’m not sure. I’d have to double check that. But certainly there was this, questionable, commitment to Protestantism in Shakespeare’s background, which was dangerous. And of course by 1601, again, when the rebellion occurred, Elizabeth would die in 1603. And there was happily a more or less peaceful transfer of power. but the English people were anxious. She was dying unmarried, childless, you know, no heir. And she, well, she had an heir. She named James I. But there was a lot of concern that the country would be plunged into civil war again. and the other thing. And well, I hadn’t really thought of this any quite this way until what you just said. I mean, Richard really becomes. He becomes an accurate prophet by the end of the play. You know, he says to Northumberland at one point, you know, Northumberland, it’s that great line. Thou ladder wherewithal, Boleyn broke, ascends the throne. and then, goes into this speech about, you know, there’s going to come a time when you’re going to think that even if Richard were to divide the kingdom and give you half, it wouldn’t be enough. And you know, then indeed, Northumberland and the percies were constantly fomenting rebellion against Henry iv. So that he accurately foresees that really, shows, I think, his, his change. Changed status. Status or spirituality. Again, he’s become a, he’s become a seer in a way. You know, as I say, an accurate prophet, which is very far from being at the. At the beginning.

Will: Yeah.

Jamal: A conduit of truth. And something about what happens when you give up everything. You’re not always consciously aware of what you were speaking. This happens in my life all the time when people think that I’m consciously aware. So like no, this is flowing through me. And something that was said too, like when you become to see. When you get to the point where you see yourself in everything. Basic human psychology. There is no surprises. You know what I mean? It becomes all quite simple. Lauryn Hill said I like shift love songs to spiritual songs. It could all be so simple, but you rather make it hard. But when you look at human behavior and you begin to see yourself in everything and everyone, the thing that you are prophesying is also just a simple truth.

Will: Yeah.

Nick: That’s really interesting. It leads me to think about what, you know, how Richard sees himself as part of the land, almost as part of England being endowed by God.

Will: When.

Nick: When he has that conversation and he puts his hand on the shores and talks to the land as if it. If he and the land are the same.

Will: Yeah. Yeah.

Miranda: Which is Arthurian. Right. You know, the king lamb thrives when the king thrives. You know, the land declines when the king, king declines. That’s.

Nick: Yeah. The conduit of truth. It makes me think of what flows through him.

Will: Yeah.

Jamal: and ah, the wonderful thing about that is Shakespeare does it all the time. Like the conduit of truth comes through all beings in Shakespeare. Like sometime it’s not the ones in power. Sometimes it’s the maid or the fool or the drunkard. You know, we used to say this in the church and I’m. Pretty many other people have said this too. Nothing is new under the sun. But even a liar can tell you the truth. And so it’s even like when you talk about the identity that you have when you’re the king, you know, it’s like, yeah,

00:40:00

Jamal: just because you’re the king don’t mean you’re the only holder of truth. And the gag is, is that sometimes you can be blinded by the crown that’s on your head that you can’t see clearly, you know. And when you think about those historical prophets, you know, you can go through to whatever religion or mystical tale, honestly it’s the same story and everything. You can go to superhero stories. I say this all the time, but it’s just that when you think you are the one, you still have to face everything that comes with that. Because if we are the one you being the one, you’re gonna run into yourself and have to fall if you think you are. And I love that in that. In the paradox of it all, that we all. We all have to experience that within the mirror of your existence. Right. I think that’s beautiful poetry.

Will: Yeah. Well, and it’s brought up. It’s brought up even in the scene, right. Flattering glass that, you know, like, to my followers and prosperity thou does beguile me. Right. Can you even. And if you’ve got that thing on, can you even. And I think that’s what you’re saying, but like, can you even trust what you are seeing? Just because the mirror is there, do you have the ability to recognize what you’re looking at? This is all great. I’d love to transition us to looking at text. just a couple of questions. So we are. Everyone is getting. I’m going to play everyone else. Sorry. but I think it’s only like three lines. So we’re going to start with the entrance of Richard Alack. Why am I sent for to a king? I think that is line 170, if you’re going off the Folger document. so just a couple of questions, and these are really just sort of, extensions of the conversation that we’ve been, talking about.

Nathan: But if you’re.

Will: If you’re basically for both parts, the main question that I want to sort of. I don’t need an answer right now, but just be thinking about is how right do you think you are in this circumstance? are you coming in. If you’re Richard, are you coming in with the full weight of God and they are committing a crime, or are you coming in? sort of. You know, I think this sort of was sparked by talking about the sort of. By the connection to the land, right. In the Arthurian. because I think certainly that is. That opens up an interesting fork in the road, because is this something that he genuinely believes, or is this something that he is performing so that everyone around him will believe that he is a king? And I think that that is. I think that’s the sense question. And it’s not like I’m not going either way. I think play it whatever makes the most sense to you. Right. Because both are absolutely valid. But I think the central question for Richard is, does he genuinely believe this or does he secretly believe that he is absolutely not worthy? and I think that’s also a spectrum. Right. I think even over the course of that scene, you know, we can keep our little Sort of. We’ll call it the Holiness Bar, right? Like, where, you know, is he a full XP or is he half. and with Bolingbroke, because I also want to. Even though Richard does. One thing I want to sort of say right off the bat before we dive in, is even though Bolingbroke doesn’t have as much text as Richard, Bolingbroke is an equal player in this scene. and I think that that is. Oh, that’s one other thing that I forgot to talk about because I have way too much caffeine in my system. I really do think that even though this is Richard ii, this is the story of these two people, and the tension between them, right? And it is their journey together. and indeed, Bolingbroke is a much larger character in this play than he is in his own plays. my Henry IV and I. I was Hal. My Henry iv and I loved part two because I was in four scenes and she was in two. And the rest of the time we just got to sit. It was awesome. Anyways, if you’re Bolingbroke, I think this is this, like, the train has left the station, right? there is no stopping it. So I think the question for a Bolingbroke, you are getting the crown. Is that something you asked for or is that not something that you wanted? Right. And again, I think that that can change over the course of this scene. Might a voice teacher call it your willingness level when you enter the room? Are you super excited to be there? Are you not so excited? It was actually. It was the best piece of advice I got. Amy Chaffee, if you’re listening, it was the best piece of advice I ever got from an acting teacher. She said, don’t force your willingness level. That will result in dishonest acting. Just be wherever you’re at. I was like, oh, cool. but what’s Richard’s holiness level and what’s bullying, bro? Willingness level? Now? this is going to be a lot of start and stop, but not immediately. I want to do one tilt at the scene without stopping. But that said, I want to make sure that both people have a chance to read both parts. So, we’re going to do something a little bit tricksy. and, we’re going to switch halfway through. So I would like for us to start the scene from Alack. Why Am I Sent for to a King? With Jamal reading King Richard and Nick reading Bolingbroke. And then, oh, I Scrolled the wrong direction. I really. I should be living in like an Oxford don’s accommodations in, like, the mid-1950s. I’m not built for the world of computers. Give me one second. I would like for us to switch after, line 231. Which is what more remains. So, Jamal, you’re going to read Richard all

00:45:00

Will: the way through to the end of that, giving the heavy weight from off my head speech. And at that point it’s going to go to me, because that’s a Northumberland line. But then from must I do. So, Nick, you take over King Richard, and Jamal, you read Bolingbroke. And this is just for. And I think that’s a. It’s about the halfway point. Ish. but that way we can take a, Ah, take a tilt at it. Everybody can take a tilt at both parts. And then we can go back and sort of. And then when we go back and we start actually nitpicking, we’ll flip flop those. But don’t worry about that for right now. okay. We all good to go?

Jamal: Yes.

Will: All righty. Sorry, give me one second. All right. Jamal, when you are ready, take us away way.

Jamal: Okay. Alack, why am I sent for to a king? Before I have shook off the regal thoughts wherewith I reigned, I hardly yet have learned to insinuate, flatter, bow and bend my knee, give sorrow, leave a while to tutor me to this omission. Yet I well remember the favors of these men. Were they not mine? Did they not sometime cry all hell to me? So Judas did to Christ, but he in 12 found truth in all but one, I, in 12,000 none. God save the king. Will no man say amen? Am, I both priest and clerk? Well, then, amen. God save the king, Although I be not he, and yet amen. If heaven do think him me to do what service am I sent for.

Will: Hither to do that office of thine own goodwill which tired majesty did make the offer, the resignation of thy state and crown to Henry Bulling.

Jamal: Give me the crown here, cousin. Seize the crown here, cousin. On this side, my hand on that side thine. Now is this golden crown like a deep well that holds two buckets filling one another, the emptier, ever dancing in the air, the other down unseen and full of water, the bucket down and full of tears am I drinking my griefs while you mount up on high.

Will: Nick.

Nick: Sorry, I lost my place. There we are. I thought you had been willing to resign.

Jamal: My crown am I. But still my griefs are mine. Ye may. My glories and my state dispose, but not my griefs. Still am I king of those part.

Nick: Of your cares you give me with your crown.

Jamal: Your cares set up, do not pluck my cares down. My care is loss of care by old care done. Your care is gain of care by new care won. The cares I give I have, though given away. They tend to the crown, yet still with me they stay.

Nick: Are you contented to resign the crown?

Jamal: Ay, no, no. Ay, for I must nothing be. Therefore, no, no, for I resign to thee. Now mark me how I will undo myself. I give this heavy weight from off my head and this unwieldy scepter from my hand. The pride I kingly sway from out of my heart. With my own tears I wash away my balm. With my own hands I give away my crown. With my own tongue, deny my sacred state with my own breast release all duteous oaths, all pomp and majesty I do forswear my manners, rents, revenues I forego. My acts, decrees, and statutes I deny. God pardon all oaths that are broke. To me God keep. All vows unbroke are made to thee. Make me that nothing have with nothing grieved, and Thou with all please, that hast all achieved. Long mayst thou live in Richard’s seat to sit and soon lie, Richard in an earthy pit. God save King Henry unking it, Richard says, and send him many years, of sunshine days.

00:50:00

Jamal: What more remains?

Will: No more, but that you read these accusations and these grievous crimes committed by your person and your followers against the state and profit of this land through that by confessing them, the souls of men may deem that you are worthily deposed.

Nick: Must I do so? And must I ravel out my weaved up follies? Gentle Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon record, would it not shame thee in so fair a troop to read a lecture of them? If thou wouldst, thou shouldst find one heinous article containing the deposing of a king and cracking the strong warrant of another oath, marked with a blot, damned in the book of heaven. Nay, all of you that stand and look upon me, whilst that my wretchedness debate myself, though some of you with pilot wash your hands, showing an outward pity, yet you pilots have here delivered me my sour cross. Cross and water cannot wash away your sin.

Will: My lord, dispatch, read o’er these articles.

Nick: Mine eyes are full of tears I cannot see. Yet salt water blinds them not so much, but they can see a sort of traitors here. Nay, if I turn mine eyes upon myself, I find myself a traitor with the rest. For I have given here my soul’s consent to undeck the pompous body of a king made glory base and sovereignty a slave. Proud majesties of subject state. A peasant.

Will: My, lord.

Nick: No, lord of thine, thou hot insulting man. Nor no man’s lord. I have no name. No title? No, not that name was given me at, the font. But tis usurped. Alack, the heavy day that I have worn so many winters out. And no, not now. What name to call myself. Oh, that I were a mockery. King of Snow, standing before the sun of Bolingbroke. To melt myself away in water drops. Good king, great king, and yet not greatly good. And if my word be sterling, yet in England let it command a mirror hither straight. That it may show me what a face I have since it is bankrupt of his majesty.

Jamal: Go, some of you, and fetch a looking glass.

Will: Read o’er this paper while the glass doth come.

Nick: Fiend, thou torments me ere I come to hell.

Jamal: Urge it no more, my Lord Northumberland.

Will: Commons will not then be satisfied.

Nick: They shall be satisfied. I’ll read enough. When I do see the very book indeed where all my sins are writ, and that’s myself. Give me that glass, and therein I will read no deeper wrinkles yet. Hath, ah, sorrow struck so many blows upon this face of mine. And made no deeper wounds. O flattering glass, like to my followers in prosperity. Does thou beguile me. Was this face the face that every day under his household roof did keep 10,000 men? Was this the face that, like the sun, did make beholders wink? Is this the face which faced so many follies. That was at last outfaced by Bolingbroke? A brittle glory shineth in this face. As brittle as the glory is the face, for there it is cracked in an hundred shivers. Mark, silent king, the moral of this sport. How, soon my sorrow hath destroyed my face.

Jamal: The shadow of your sorrow hath destroyed the shadow of your face.

Nick: Say that again. The shadow of my sorrow.

Nick: Let’s see. Tis very true. My grief lies all within. And these external manners of laments are merely shadows to the unseen grief that swells with silence in the tortured soul. There lies the substance. And I thank thee, King, for thy great bounty. That not only gives me cause to wail, but teaches me the way

00:55:00

Nick: how to lament the cause. I’ll beg one boon, and then shall be gone. And Trouble you no more. Shall I obtain it?

Jamal: Name it. Fair cousin.

Nick: Fair cousin, I am greater than a king. For when I was a king, my flatterers were then but subjects. Being now a subject, I have a king here to my flatterer being so great, I have no need to beg.

Jamal: Yet ask.

Nick: And shall I have.

Jamal: You shall.

Nick: then give me leave to go.

Will: Whither.

Nick: Whither you will so I were from your sights.

Will: Go.

Jamal: Some of you. Convey him to the tower.

Nick: O good conveyor. Conveyors are you all that rise thus nimbly by a true king’s fall.

Jamal: Such a good scene.

Will: It’s brilliant. you know what? I know that we said we were going to end it. Does everybody have the Folger thing?

Nick: Yeah.

Will: M. I’m going to say, for the interest of us, working, let’s actually end it one line later so that we can keep this. Bolingbroke. On Wednesday next, we solemnly set down our coronation. Lords, prepare yourselves. The only reason I didn’t include it originally, but the only reason I’m saying that is because if we are investigating this tension between Richard and Bolingbroke, Shakespeare doesn’t give Richard the last line, the last word. And, so I want to see. I want us to investigate what that. What receiving that does to whoever’s playing Bolingbroke. So we’ll tack that on. no need to go back, but, Spotlight on Jamal. Now deliver that line. No. But.

Jamal: On Wednesday next, we solemnly set down our coronation. Lords, prepare yourselves.

Will: Knocked it out of the park. But just so as we move forward, I just want us to have that there because I think it is actually more important than I had originally thought. it’s such a good scene. And the thing that leapt out at me, which, again, I just want to. It’s such a general. I don’t have general thoughts right now, but, like, Richard’s funny. Like, as a person, he’s like, his use of language and his sense of play with language is so. He’s so facile and he’s so inventive. Like, I love. I mean, I love puns, but I love that he says, you know, like, there’s some of you with pilot washer hands showing an outward pity. Yet you pilots, if you’re like, it’s pilot, like Pontius pilot, but then pilot, like, you know, airplane pilot. Or, like, you know, that it’s. It’s, you know, he’s. He’s in his element. And part of me, like, there’s part of Richard. And again, this is a little bit editorial, but Richard’s a drama mom. Like, no matter who Richard is, this is someone who absolutely thrives in the spotlight. And he does it, like, right from the word go, right. Even in Act 1, Scene 1. It’s that great, that great couplet of this we prescribe. Though no physician too deep malice makes too deep incision. And like his corruption, his gaggle of. And it’s in full production. It’s heartbreaking because the first time that he makes a pun, he’s surrounded by a bunch of people who laugh and applaud for him. And now he’s greeted with just crushing fucking silence. But it is. But he keeps going, and I think that’s the important thing. Anyways, Yeah. Beautiful read, friends. I want to open up for thoughts and impressions.

Nick: Bolingbroke’s hard because I was mesmerized by Jamal that I forget to say the lines. He pops in every now and then, and you’re like, oh, yeah.

Jamal: Well, that’s. I think that it’s interesting that you mentioned that, because when we flipped, I also had that feeling listening to you, because, again, it’s something that does slow down the room he is speaking. Something that is beneath the surface that most of us can’t know. I don’t even think himself, like. I think it’s a deeper feeling than a knowing. I really do. I really do think it’s that space in between. And, for me, I like Richard being in that space in between asking the big questions. It sounds as if he knows, but he really doesn’t, because to know anything is to know nothing. And I think, he plays upon that. He plays with it even when he’s looking at himself in the mirror. He’s like, oh, all this truth, all these things, and I have not been mobile. And then he crashes it because it’s like, if we are, then I am. Even though I’m still cute, though, you know?

Nick: He loves an audience, maybe Richard, it seems.

Will: He absolutely does.

Nick: Yeah.

Will: And I think he’s always loved his reflection. Like, it’s. But I. Jamal M. I love what you just said, and I want to uphold it. And I’m gonna. Like. I tend to be a very technical director when it comes to the verse. I want to sort of uphold that as, like, the gold standard, especially if you’re playing Richard. It’s absolutely always a discovery. I think. Absolutely. And I think the only reason that I’m flagging it right now is because, Not just because it’s a good Rule

01:00:00

Will: of thumb for playing verse, but also because I think up until this point in the play, maybe up to the hollow crown speech. I think maybe right up to the hollow crown speech, Richard is doing that thing that. I don’t know if this. I don’t know if you got social anxiety or not. but, yeah, speaking for myself, there’s sometimes a danger when you find yourself in a room with, a lot of very intelligent or powerful people, right? And there’s sometimes I often feel pressure to appear very put together and always know exactly what I’m talking about. And that sometimes results in, like, there’s like a. You ever get that, like, low drone or like that get that bird’s eye view of yourself? And you’re just like, you fucking idiot. You can be saying it doesn’t matter what you’re saying, right? You’re like. You were quietly. While the person in front, while the last person was talking, you’ve been quietly rehearsing what you’re gonna say, and then you say it, right? And there’s an element of that. Like, Richard, he’s very fun and he’s very creative and he’s all of these things, but he’s a little bit restrained and a little bit stilted in the early scenes of the play. And this is. It’s like he sets himself on fire. It’s like he catches fire. like, there is something, like, you’ve really hit the nail on the head. that it is. There is something about this scene, and there is something about him being able to see himself and not give a fuck or do give a fuck, and sort of to be able to surmount that for the first time in his life. But it is absolutely always a discovery.

Jamal: And it’s in that space too. Like, listen, I mean, we all go to sleep, we all dream, and we all wake up with ourselves, regardless of who’s next to us. And sometimes with these thoughts, you feel kind of crazy. And so even though you’re saying it so clean after you say it and you hear what you just said, like, these things. That’s the thing about embodying these truths in this realm. It’s hard to perfectly. Which is why you work on the balance of it. And so there’s moments where, like, Richard is speaking, but then he hears what he just said. Because, like, you know, I always say this. Whatever I say out my mouth is, for me, in the same space and time. And so there’s also, like, where are you? Are you okay? You know, with it as well. That I feel like in saying these things, like, there was moments when I was saying the words, and I’m like. Like, ooh, what did I just say?

Will: What did you say? The character explicitly has that moment. It’s my favorite line to play. Say that again. My sorrow. Like, he literally. He has that exact experience explicitly. Yeah, yeah. No. Beautiful. all right, friends, let’s start picking this text apart. So, let’s remain flipped. So we’ll start with Nick reading Richard and Jamal reading Bolingbroke, and then when we get to that same point, will flip again so everybody will have had a chance to read everything. I want to keep, as much as possible, because I think the deeper we get into this, I think the more I am convinced that I want one day to be Nick day or one day to be sort of. This is the last time we’re going to switch in the middle of the session. so for today, as much as possible, and this is a reminder to myself, as much as anybody, let’s try and keep the discussion, as close to just understanding, the words on the page as possible. And the only reason that I’m saying that’s not generally how I work, but the only reason that I’m saying that is I want to make sure that if we are talking about Jamal’s Richard in a future episode, that that is not influenced by anything, by any character discussion that happens today at the table. And likewise with Nick, and likewise for the Bolingbrokes, too. so I imagine these lines in the sand are not going to be very clearly maintained, and that’s not the end of the world. but I just want to. I guess the only thing that I want to say before we start getting in the nitty gritty is Nick and Jamal. For me, the most important thing, as we go forward, is how these parts are resonating with you in the moment. and so if somebody says something, about one of these parts that you don’t agree with, that’s totally okay. And hold on to that. It’s like I’m sort of asking you guys to think, like, two part harmony, right? Which is something I’m terrible at. So hold on to your part. If you disagree, that’s good. It’s gonna make for a great podcast.

Jamal: if you love Shakespeare, you gotta love that. Disagree. Wait, hold on. That thought, though. That thought, though. So I’m excited for that, actually.

Will: Oh, yeah, me too. Me too. final thoughts before we. Before we dive in. No.

Nick: Well, I wanted to ask Miranda a little bit about, And maybe for myself and our audience, the history between Bolingbroke and Richard, and the banishment that happens a little earlier in the play. Just because I feel like part of their relationship in this scene is based on the fact that he was sent away for six years or something. I’m not sure exactly what the story is. And then he came back.

Miranda: Yeah, exactly. Well, as you may remember, the play begins with, conflict between Bolingbroke and Thomas Mowbray.

Miranda: And the question is over Mowbray’s, responsibility for killing, Thomas Woodstock, who was the Earl of Gloucester, who was really everything. The whole thing starts with Edward iii, who had these five very, very ambitious, sons. And then, His most immediate heir, dies before Edward does. And

01:05:00

Miranda: that is Richard’s father. So, So we begin just with this conflict. That is, I always say, with Shakespeare, with the history plays. I’m always reminded of, that slogan of the women’s movement back in the 60s and the 70s. The personal is political. And for me, that’s one of the things that always makes these history plays really pop, is that these. Yes, these are historic events, but this is also a family. These are fraught family dynamics. And, I’m also always reminded of what the great British actor and critic Kenneth Tynan used to say about the history plays, about Shakespeare’s history plays. If you heard this one, Will, he says, He wrote at one point that the trouble with the history plays is that they contain far too many lines that sound something like. And dost thou now presume base leamington, to scorn thy cousin’s brother’s eldest son? You know, true.

Will: You know.

Miranda: So you’re sort of keeping track of these family dynamics. But, yes, what’s happened at the beginning here is that Henry, who is Richard. Henry Bolenberg, who is Richard’s cousin, he’s his first cousin. Is accusing Thomas Mowbray of the murder of their mutual uncle. one of these sons of Edward and, Richard very, Sort of peremptorily stops, them from dueling, from. From, Completing their duel, which he earlier had allowed to go forward. He banishes, bolingbroke originally for 10 years. He banishes. Interestingly, he banishes Mowbray for life. upon me, a sterner sentence which I, with some unwillingness pronounce. And we can, you know, historians and others have speculated about that. But then, it’s sort of In a formative display of magnanimity, Richard looks at Bolingbroke’s father, who is Richard’s own uncle, John of God, time honored Lancaster, and says, I see how this upsets you. I’m going to just take away four years. They’re just six years. You’re just banished for six years. So from the very beginning, there’s a tension there. and it’s always so striking when Bolingbroke leaves and Richard’s, cronies, basically O’Mearrow, comes and they’re just talking very candidly about the contempt they have for Bolingbroke. so there’s this complicated. I’m, going maybe a little too far astray from your question, Nick, but, you know, there’s this complicated dynamic that is, as I say, a family dynamic, a historical one, political factions and a mystery. You know, there’s the mystery of who was responsible for this murder. There is a play, Thomas of Woodstock, that outline that is sort of. It’s not by Shakespeare, but it’s a, It’s a prequel. And I’ve seen productions in which a scene, the scene of, Thomas of Woodstock’s murder, it’s sort of briefly staged before going into Richard II to try to make some context there. so it was, you know, we begin in this moment of great conflicts on many, many levels and including the personal, you know, between.

Nick: Yeah, I just wanted to get a feeling of how Bolingbroke views Richard in the scene, of what his feelings of Richard are.

Miranda: You know, he. And that, I think, really comes out. It depends on performance, you know, and really, particularly in that moment when Richard says, I’m going to take away four years from your banishment. And Bolingbroke has this line about, you know, for what is it for weary winters and for wanton springs, gone in a moment such as the Breath of Kings. And I’ve seen actors just of, you know, spitting that line out in fury and others just sort of marveling. So that’s, for me, that’s what could really come out in performance. You know, what, what, what Bolingbroke really thinks of Richard and, and Richard of. We do learn what Richard thinks of Bolingbroke in those intervening scenes. And it’s not much, you know, he contemptuous of him, as I say. But, look how that worked out. So, Well, it’s performance choices, I think. Yeah.

Will: Forgive me if this is something that you said and my caffeine addled brain missed it, but there is also there’s suspicion that Richard ordered the death of Gloucester, too. Right.

Miranda: Exactly. Yes. And I didn’t specify that it’s not your caffeine addlebread at all. Your brain is dead. But, no, that’s right. There’s suspicion that Richard may have ordered that murder. And that may be. And that’s why Mowbray feel so betrayed when Richard banishes him, you know, for life. And, this. Bowling wrote know that, you know, what’s. What’s. And of course, this scene, the deposition scene, begins with this really almost ludicrous, series.

Will: Ah.

Miranda: Of events when O’Merle and everybody else are sort of challenging, you know, challenging. A lot of people are challenging O’Merle. You know, I support you. No, you’re lying. And so, like, people are throwing down their gauges one after the next, and it’s. And again, the Shakespeare’s control over the tone here is just extraordinary. I think that we. That we go from that. I mean, it’s one.

Miranda: Finally, Morrow has to

01:10:00

Miranda: say, well, some honest Christian, lend me a gauge. You know, he’s.

Will: He’s.

Miranda: He’s holding all these gloves. He doesn’t have any of his own that he can throw down. And that Shakespeare can go from that scene, which is just inevitably comet. To, you know, to this. To this moment is, Is always very, striking to me as well. So.

Will: Yeah. William, thank.

Miranda: Hm.

Jamal: You.

Miranda: Yeah.

Will: Too much answer, but no, that’s exactly. some general, Just to sort of speak. To do a slight pivot as we go into text work. just a couple of general observations. this is verse. Be very cognizant of driving energy to the ends of lines. Don’t worry about like. I’m not. What is it? They said that John Barton was a, verse purist.

Jamal: No. A verse.

Will: I’ll be here all night. I don’t need you to take the. Say zura at the end of a line or anything, but please do like king thoughts, learns knee. These are the most important words in the line, just for sense. So make sure that we’re driving to that. I’ll encourage. both of you gentlemen. Let’s not worry about any pretension. Let’s not worry about a Shakespeare voice. Let’s not worry about any sort of dialect.

Will: So we are speaking in our own voices. yeah, those were. Those were only my only two initial observations. So, Nick, when you’re ready, take it away. And I will call stop. And anyone can call stop at any point. any of the Four of us. And Nathan too. If you want to. If you want to jump in. Anyone can call. Stop at any time if you want to discuss something. If you’ve got a question, if you’ve got a thought. Anyone? All right, Nick. take it away.

Nick: Alack, why am I sent for to a king? Before I have shook off the regal thoughts wherewith I reigned, I hardly yet, have learned to insinuate, flatter, bow and bend my knee, Give sorrow, leave a while to tutor me to this submission. Yet I well remember the favors of these men. Were they not mine? Did they not sometime cry, all hail to me? So Judas did to Christ, but he in 12 found truth in all but one, I in 12,000 none. God save the king. Will no man say Amen? Am I both priest and clerk? Well then, amen.

Nick: God saved the king, although I be not he. And yet, amen. Ah, if heaven do think him me to do, what service am I sent for hitherto?

Will: Good, good, good, good. I’m going to stop because it’s a nice big chunk right at the beginning and I’d like to unpack it. So, Nick, help me out. What do these first couple lines mean?

Nick: Well, it seems like he’s saying, five minutes ago I was the king, and now you’re asking me to come here and treat another as the king.

Nick: And I’m not ready to do this yet. I don’t know how to flatter, how to bend my knee, how to bow to someone else. As you said, he’s been the king since he was nine years old.

Jamal: Great.

Will: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. Since nine years old.

Jamal: Yeah.

Will: This is right on the money. I think, just for sense, I think sent for is going to be, for both of you gentlemen. I think sent for is a huge thing because I don’t know that anyone has sent for you. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Excuse me?

Jamal: Yeah, I said it’s like me.

Will: Yeah, me Excuse you. so it’s almost more important than King. I still need to hear king, but I definitely need to hear sent for. Great. M. And again, it’s something that I’m just. I would encourage if you’re Richards. Right. Agency is another huge thing for Richard. Right. Because when he was, he says later in the prison speech, I wasted time and now doth time waste me. Right. And so this is not somebody who, unless he’s like, stealing money from his dead uncle to go start a war in Ireland, this is not somebody who’s like, done a tremendous amount with his crown. Right. Or that’s not the impression that Shakespeare gives us. He’s not the world’s most enterprising king, but he is taking agency here. So it is just interesting to note where he is taking agency in his language. Right before I have shook off the regal thoughts, wherewith I reigned, right? So there’s this idea of, like, you shouldn’t be able to send for me before I have actually abdicated. Even though he is the person who said. Who first brought up the abdication. likewise. again, I would insinuate, flatter, bow, and bend my knee. for both of you. Let’s make sure we’re giving each of those weight. I don’t know. I’m going to take the pressure off of both of you to. I think if you’re Richard, take your time. I’ll let you know if you’re being too slow. But the stage is yours, Right.

01:15:00

Will: I think with this. Give sorrow, leave a while. Let’s treat, sorrow as a person, right? Because again, sorrow has, like, where’s the agency? Right. I still have to be taught. And then I think that’s the first again. And this is the only reason I’m bringing. Excuse me, my cat is making noise outside the door. No, she’s gone. you’ll all meet June Bug at some point. and then I think this is the first beat change, Right? And again, the only reason I’m bringing this up is I think it is. It’s important to lay out exactly, like, what is the argument, and how exactly are we making it with this language? Because I think. Because it is so beautiful, and it is so, like, the verse will hold us. It is so rhythmically rich. I just want to make sure that we’re sort of dialing in and getting a clear sense of that argument. And how is that being made? Take it again, Nick. Let’s just take it from the top again.

Alack, why am I sent for to a king Before I have

Nick: Alack, why am I sent for to a king Before I have, shook off the regal thoughts Wherewith I reigned, I hardly yet have learned to insinuate, flatter, bow and bend my knee. Give sorrow leave a while to tutor me to this submission. Yet I will remember the favors of these men. Were they not mine? Did they not sometime cry, all hail to me? So Judas did to Christ. But he in 12 found truth in all but one, I in 12,000 none. God save the king. Will no man say amen? Am I both priest and clerk? Well, then, amen. God save the king. Although I be not he and Yet, Amen. if heaven do think him me. Let me say that again. And yet. Amen. If heaven do think him me to do, what service am I sent for hither?

Will: Good. great.

Nick: What service am I sent for hither? So I always, I always have to specify that line lives kind of by itself.

Will: It lives a little by itself. And I think, I think service, I think you can flow through again.

Nick: Service.

Will: Yeah. Shout out to Joe Olivieri if she’s listening, who’s my Shakespeare teacher, because always said you got like $10 to spend on a line of verse, right? So it’s like, what’s that? What’s a four dollar word? What’s a three dollar word? What’s like a 50 cent word? I think to do what are all like 10 cent words? Drive to service, Right. Service. Service bent for, God save the king. Although I, I think I. And he. Right. And again, it’s all. It’s that seesaw, it’s that mirror thing, right? The king is this other thing. And it’s again, like thinking about discovery. It’s almost like. And we’re not worrying about acting right now. But it is. But it is. If it is a new thought that is occurring, it’s like, oh, to him, in that moment, it’s like, oh, yeah, okay. Like the king is something else. And even if I’m not him anyways, I’m getting ahead of myself. I versus he, I think, is going to help clarify that God save and separate from king. And likewise, I think heaven and me are the important words. Rather than think, I think that we still need to hear think, but you are. He’s drawing a line between the secular and the holy right. God save the king, Although I be not he. I might not be king, but we will only say Amen. Ah, right. If heaven, if the ultimate authority, is on my side. okay, just take it from. Take, it from. God save the King. Will no man say amen? And then we’ll press on. But great, great adjustment, man. Really great.

Nick: God save the King. Will no man say Amen? Am I both priest and clerk? Well, then, amen. God save the king, Although I be not he. And yet.

Will: Amen.

Nick: if heaven do think him, me to do what service am I sent for hither?

Will: Do that office of thine own goodwill which tired majesty did make thee offer the resignation of thy state and crown to Henry Bullinger.

Nick: Brook, give me the crown. Here, cousin. Seize the crown. Here, cousin. On this side, my hand on that side, thine. Now is this golden crown like a deep well that owes two buckets filling one another, the empty, the emptier ever dancing in the air,

01:20:00

Nick: the other down unseen and full of water, that bucket down and full of tears. Am I drinking my griefs whilst you mount up on high?

Jamal: I thought you had been willing to resign my crown.

Nick: I am, but still my griefs are mine. You may my glories and my deep state depose, but not my griefs. Still am I king of those part.

Jamal: Of your cares you give me with your crown.

Nick: Aye.

Will: No, no, I think we jumped. but that’s okay, because part of.

Nick: Oh, yeah, sorry.

Will: My bad, my bad. No, no, no, that’s okay. We needed to stop and go back. it’s all very clear. It’s all. Well, great, great, great. the thing that’s striking me, too, is just how clear the text is. Right? Like, I’m not feeling a need to, like, check a footnote or anything. Like, it’s all. On first hearing or even on first reading. It’s very. Like, the imagery is powerful, but it’s simple.

Jamal: and it’s very intimate, too.

Will: Yeah. Expounding.

Jamal: This conversation is being had. Sure, there’s people around, and it’s happening in a public space, but there’s something that. That. Because it’s speaking to the heart with these big ideas, it’s like, it zooms all the way in. And like, I was thinking, like, your note of, like, this is us speaking. This is us speaking is bringing that clarity to me because it just. It’s piercing to the heart, which makes it intimate. Although this is something happening in public. And then there’s moments when it becomes public. Let me lay down, like, the public figure that I am. this and that and this and this. Is there anything else? You know, and so there’s something that. It goes between this intimacy, to your question, Nick, with this history between Bolingbroke and Richard, you know, that’s something that’s coming up right now in this moment.

Will: Yeah. Well, and it’s interesting, sort of dialing back to that. On that line and sort of dialing back to what Miranda said. It’s like Bolingbroke and Richard, like, they. Like, on paper, they seem like they would be cousins and, like, remote cousins. Right. But they. They really do sort of behave like siblings occasionally. Don’t.

Nick: Like brothers, almost. Yeah, absolutely.

Will: Yeah. But, like, it’s in that way. I mean, like, we all just came from Thanksgiving. Right. But it’s like. But in that moment where it’s like the people surrounding them, you know, become like a weapon. Right. It’s like it’s, you know, you’re. You’re deploying the fact that it’s a public conversation. Which is just what you said, Jamal. It’s like you’re deploying the fact that it’s a public conversation. for whatever reason. Yeah. You know, it’s beautiful.

Miranda: And they also.

Jamal: And it’s that mirror image too. Like the poetry of, so Judas did to Christ as well. And so that. Another mirroring that, like, again, these beings represent something bigger than them about society in that time. And these two beings in this time represent something bigger than it.

Will: Than it is.

Jamal: But it’s the personal and the collective, like, coming together in this moment.

Nick: Yeah. It feels like Bolingbroke has the power and Richard is taking power with language. You know, it’s almost like Bolingbroke’s silence represents the power. Like he is the quiet king and Richard is battling it with words.

Will: Well, and there are two. There’s two sides to that. And again, like, thank you. You were about to preempt my question, which is, why isn’t Bolingbroke saying anything? And I feel like that is one answer. And the other answer is he’s legitimate. Like, that’s just not how he operates. Right.

Nick: He’s a quiet guy.

Will: Yeah. quiet guy. Or Richard is legitimately, like, besting him and humiliating. And how much. How much can Bolingbroke say? Right. Like, it is. You’ve cut again, Nick. You two are smart. but, Nick, you’ve cut right to the heart of it. Right. Because it is. It’s about the nature of power. Bolingbroke should have all of the power in this situation. Bolingbroke has the army. Richard is in prison. All of Richard’s supporters are either dead or they’ve run away. and yet it’s not just about, Richard taking power, but Bolingbroke’s hands are tied in a way that Richard’s aren’t. because Bolingbroke is about to have to go and be king now. Right. And there’s certain. What’s fascinating, too. I don’t know what’s fascinating was listening. And it’s not in this scene, but in the scene where Richard is complaining to, a Merle about, Bolingbroke, there’s a point where he says, we note how I’m going to butcher the line, but basically how much popularity he had with a common people. Right.

Miranda: We did observe it.

Will: Yeah.

Miranda: And he Sort of enters on that. On that line. I think in that scene we did observe, you know, it’s sort of the conversation is in medias race, you know, that. Yeah, I noticed how popular he was. And then that ah, plays out later in the play.

Will: Yeah, yeah. And the fact that I think there’s that specific. There’s a specific. I’m a highly trained professional. There is a specific image that’s sticking in my head of him. like off goes his bonnet.

Miranda: Oh, off goes is bonnet to an oyster wench.

Miranda: Yeah.

Will: He’s not maintaining his status. And what’s. Yeah, it’s why, like, I wish that there was more

01:25:00

Will: money in the classical theater period. But it’s so great when you do all of the plays together.

Jamal: Right.

Will: Because what. Richard’s complaints about Bolingbroke and how sort of like common he is allowing himself to be turn into Bolingbroke’s complaints about his own son. Bolingbroke in the next place as the skipping king, he ambled up and down with, you know, made himself. Made himself something to popularity. Right. Beefed himself to popularity. Right. Which we know wasn’t the case. And it was. And Richard was saying that just about, Bolingbroke when he wasn’t the king, right. That like whoever’s wearing the crown is staring at whoever isn’t. And it’s like, God, everyone loves that guy. Yeah.

Miranda: And that’s so interesting, Will, that, what you’re saying about his. He’s sort of. Richard’s complaining that Bolingbroke is lowering his status. Whereas. Whereas the way I’ve always sort of envisioned that is that he’s. He’s so popular because he’s respectful even of an oyster wench. You know, he’s. It’s a sort of,

Miranda: He’s hobnobbing with the, with the common people with respect. And then of course, then that’s what he complains about. And no one tell me of my unthrifty son, you know, which is all we hear in display about,

Will: Hal. But yeah, yeah, no, it’s interesting. the only thing, And sort of. The only reason that I’m asking us to stop and go back is that we’re about to go into this very sort of, We’re about to start finishing each other’s sentences and we’re about to start finishing each other’s rhymes. Right? And so these two sort of looking at this mirror thing, like we’re about to start going into like these two weirdly end up in sync for a moment. Moment on a certain level. can we just take it back to, the other down unseen and full of water that bucket down and full of tears am I, drinking my griefs. Which also, like drinking my griefs, is going to be the title of my memoir. Well, the wilb story, anyways. continue.

Nick: The other down, unseen and full of water that bucket down and full of tears am I drinking my griefs while you mount up on high.

Jamal: I thought you had been willing to resign my crown.

Nick: I am, but still my griefs are mine. You may my glories and my state depose, but not my griefs. I am still, Am I king of those part of.

Jamal: Your cares you give me with your crown?

Nick: Your cares set up do not pluck my cares down. My care is loss of care by old care done. Your care is gain of care by new care won. The cares I give, I have though given away. They tend the crown, yet still with me they stay.

Jamal: Are you contented to resign the crown?

Nick: Ay, no, no, I. For I must nothing be. Therefore, no, no, for I, resign to thee. Now mark me how I will undo myself. I give this heavy weight from off my head and this unwieldy scepter from my hand, the pride of kingly sway from out my heart. With mine own tears I wash away my balm. With mine own hands I give away my crown. With mine own tongue deny my sacred state. With mine own breath release all duties, O oaths, all pomp and majesty. I do forswear my manners, Rents, revenues, I forego my acts, decrees and statues, I deny statutes, I deny God pardon all oaths that are broke. To me God keep, All vows unbroke are made to thee. Make me that nothing have with nothing grieved, and thou with all pleased that hast all achieved. Long mayst thou live in Richard’s seat to sit, and soon lie Richard in an earthly pit. God save King Henry unkinged. Richard says send him many years of sunshine days. What more remains?

Will: Good, good, good, good. I just want to dial back one quick scansion, note for both of you. It scans revenues, my manners, rents, revenues I forego. And the only reason I bring it up is because it is, I think, like the meter and the verse and rhythm of it, I think are really important. Specifically, in this speech, we switch inexplicably to rhyming couplets, which is a rhyme scheme in which Shakespeare almost never writes for a sustained period. Miranda, correct me if that’s.

Miranda: That is correct.

Nick: It’s really high poetry.

Will: Yeah, well. And it feels almost. It almost feels French. Like. It almost feels like Restand or Moliere for a moment.

Nick: Yeah, Moliere, absolutely.

Will: and I. But I think it’s.

01:30:00

Will: I think it. It can be a deliberate choice. I think there’s a couple of ways. I think. I think it’s operating on a few levels. I think on the one hand, these two. I think sort of Jamal talking about that. Sort of like the spotlight zooming in on, like, are we dealing with intimate or.

Nick: Or the collective presentation.

Will: Thank you.

Miranda: Presentation.

Will: But it is, on the one hand, these two, it’s almost like to me, it’s always sort of read like Romeo and Juliet slipping into that sonnet together when they’re in the party scene. Like these two on a certain level are insane. Richard is definitely leading, but Bolingbroke completes a few of these rhymes. so it’s not like Bolingbroke isn’t paying attention. It’s not like Bolingbroke is like Bolingbroke is engaging. but I also. It’s that thing of like it sticks in your memory more. Right. It’s like this. If you watch Richard ii, this is always not just the sort of the great image of the inverted crown, which we will. We’re not going to worry about this today, but we’re going to attempt some sort of staging of that just so you guys have something to play with. And because it is such an iconic image. but it is also like it sticks in the minds of the audience and therefore it must stick in the minds of the characters in the play. I mean, this is sort of Richard’s last, It’s his last opportunity to have any panache. Right. And to. It’s his last opportunity to sort of fully be king. And talking about taking agency too. Right. I love this. I know. No, I. For I must nothing be. He’s admitting the fact that he has no sense of identity. Therefore. No, no. For I resign to thee. Right. It’s not that the crown’s being taken away from me. I’m gonna make sure that everyone sees me put this back on my head. I’m gonna make sure that everyone sees me hand it to you. And then I’m gonna end it with a couplet about the fact that I’m gonna be dead soon. Right. And so I’m gonna. I’m gonna give you. I’m not gonna mandate this. I’m gonna give you guys the option of corrupting the pronunciation of says to say, you don’t have to take it, but know that it’s on the table as an option. Again, Shakespeare, if you’ve never checked out the work of David and Ben Crystal, who’ve done a ton of really fascinating work on original pronunciation. Absolutely do. It’s gorgeous.

Miranda: Let me just follow, on what Will just said. David and Ben Kristol, their father’s son. They have videos all over YouTube. They have books.

Will: Books.

Miranda: But they talk about just doing Shakespearean original pronunciation. And what we gain, the rhymes we hear, the word, connections, the image connections, the thematic connections that we hear, when, it’s spoken in original pronunciation. And it’s not dry, dusty, academic bones. They’re really entertaining. Both of them are very entertaining. it’s. It’s, Yeah, it’s. It’s great stuff. As I say, it’s all on YouTube. Or I can. I can send you a link.

Will: Yeah, that’d be great.

Miranda: I’ll do that.

Will: It’s really. It’s fascinating.

Miranda: Yeah, it’s great stuff. Yeah.

Will: Found myself on a zoom with Ben and Crystal over the pandemic.

Miranda: Oh, I know, I know. I mean, both of them are just. Just amazing. and, Will, I just also wanted to say, the rhyming. The rhyming couplets here, I think, for me, always sort of add to the. It’s a ritual. He’s ritually divesting himself, as you. As you say, he’s uncrowning himself. And the couplets, reinforce, that idea. I think that it is a ritualistic unkinging of himself.

Nick: This, is really what Bolingbroke wants to see. This is what this is all about for him, right? He’s putting this on display so that the people can see Richard handing him the crown. Is this sort of on purpose by him?

Will: Like, I would say that. Miranda? I would say, that’s a question for when we get into the nitty gritty of rehearsal. Because I think there is a Bolingbroke that feels more confident and wants everyone to see Richard giving it. And there’s also a version of this where Bolingbroke would prefer this whole thing was happening behind closed doors and that suddenly he was just the king. Right? Like, it’s not. I don’t know that well. And I don’t know. I don’t know if Bolingbroke is going into the scene thinking, like, excited. I mean, it sounds basic, but I don’t know if this is something. If this. If getting the crown is something that I don’t know what that fills Bolingbroke with. I don’t know if it fills him with terror. At a certain point it does. but at what point does it fill him with terror? At what point does he realize exactly what has he, what he has invited upon himself? I don’t know. That’s my 10 cents, Miranda.

Miranda: Yeah. And I don’t think he knows. And it’s certainly interesting that it’s Northumberland who keeps saying here, admit to all this. And he keeps hammering at home and finally Richard loses, ah, his composure. Well, his composure. Richard loses a composure and his bowling Brooklyn says just, just, just let it go. And I always find the tension in that moment so interesting. Bolingbroke says let it

01:35:00

Miranda: go. And I realize we’re jumping ahead a bit here, but And Northumberland says the commons will not else be satisfied. And it’s Richard who says they shall be satisfied. It’s not, it’s not Henry Bolingbroke who says they shall be satisfied. It’s Richard, you know.

Will: Yeah.

Nick: Ah, because I’m m asking because Richard says what service am I, am I here to do, basically? And I was wondering what service is he there to do? What is, you know, why is he in this room?

Will: He’s definitely there to hand the crown. Whether or not Bolingbroke wanted him to do, to go on this whole sort of like ritualized thing, I think that’s, that’s where the nuance centers in because it is, it’s, I mean it’s, he doesn’t, it’s not, it’s not demure, it’s, it’s he calls it like it is and he, you know, whether there’s a question mark about the deposing of a, the murder of a king, there’s no gray area there. and that’s a decision that will haunt again. I was listening to the Simon Russell Beale book and he’s never played Henry iv, but he did. He was invited to a, ah, dinner where he read. He and Jeffrey Stretfield read 4.3 from Henry IV Part 2, which is the King’s death scene. And the dinner was held in the Jerusalem Chamber of Westminster, which is the room where, where Henry IV died. and there was a point where Simon Rose Bill is like in the middle of this beautiful speech he has about I think it’s, you know, after, after, after Hal has made it clear that he’s going to be taking it seriously. he looks at the crown and he says, you know how I came by this crown, O God, forgive and grant it may with thee in true peace live. And he just sort of spontaneously looked up at the ceiling, and the building was commissioned by Richard ii. he also apparently introduced the fork to English culture. But anyways, the building was commissioned by Richard ii. And he looks up and the ceiling is just covered with. It’s like Richard’s coat of arms had been painted a thousand times on the ceiling, which meant that the last thing that this man saw in his life would. Because he would have been lying in the Jerusalem chamber, dying. The last thing he would have seen would have been a thousand copies of the coat of arms of the king that he had had murdered. Right. So it is. It’s a decision, the deposing. Things get out of control for Bolingbroke, definitely. And it leads to. And whether or not Bolingbroke knows what he’s. Whether or not Bolingbroke directly orders this murder is up to some debate, but the consequences are his. And it plagued him for the rest of his life. I don’t remember how he got.

Miranda: On that, but, just Bolingbroke’s agency, really. How much of this he intends to be a public renunciation of the crown, I don’t know.

Will: For my money, it’s a question mark.

Miranda: Yeah.

Will: Thank you. All right, we got 10 minutes left. so let’s press on. so no more but that you read these accusations and these grievous crimes committed by your person and your followers against the state and profit of this land, that by confessing them, the souls of men may deem that you are worthily deposed.

Jamal: Must I do so? And must I ravel out my. Weave it up follies. Weave it, weaved up, follies. Weaved up, weaved up follies. Gentle Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon record, would it not shame thee in so fair a troop to read a lecture of them? If thou wouldst, there shouldst thou find one heinous article containing the disposing of a king and cracking the strong warrant of an oath marked with a blot damned in the book of heaven. Nay, all of you that stand and look upon me whilst that my wretchedness doth bait myself. Though some of you with palate wash your hands, showing an outward pity, yet you pallets have here delivered me to a sour cross. And water cannot wash away your sin.

Will: Great. I’m gonna hold this just because it’s a nice chunk and I want to unpack it. great. Read well, and I love that you’re. I really. I want to call it. Like, I love that you’re taking both of you. I love that you’re taking your time. Like, I think again, if Richard is speaking. Richard. It’s one of those things where it’s like, as long as Richard has the mic, no one can kill him. You know, like, he has to keep talking. good. So I love this. the first image that leaps out to me is like, I love the. To read a lecture of them. Right? That it’s, it’s. It’s such a mundane image, but again, I think it just speaks to, like, the inventiveness of this man. unpack this for me. So what, these first few lines, what are we saying?

Jamal: Absolutely. Must I do so? And must I ravel out my weaved up follies? Must I expose myself? Must I reveal it all? M. Gentle Northumberland, if thy offenses were upon record. Northumberland, if yours are upon record, would it not shame you? Would you not feel

01:40:00

Jamal: shame if so fair a, troop to read a lecture of them. So if it were you, would you want all of your wrongs read like a lecture before this room? if thou was there, shouldst thou find one heinous article containing the deposing of a king and cracking the strong.

Will: Warrant of an oath.

Jamal: If we did that, you will find this mark and this blot in that bit. Sorry, we are on YouTube. I don’t know who’s watching.

Will: I’m sorry.

Jamal: My mouth, man. My mama’s. My mama.

Will: Anyway, this is excellent. And I just want to flag one thing because I think, both of you read this, and I just want to give this note to both of you. I think shouldst is of less importance than find, what’s there shouldst thou find. And then from there, one heinous article. Beautiful. Continue, translating.

Jamal: I’m loving, and cracking the strong warren of an oath. So this, you know. Yo, look at what you’re doing right now, bro. That’s the. That’s the blot damned in the book of heaven. Like, damn, this is bad. nah, that’s okay. All of you that stand and look upon me. Nah, cool. All you standing here looking upon me whilst thou, whilst that my wretchedness doth bait myself. Though some of you with palate wash your hands.

Pallet: It’s as if they have delivered me to the cross

So, Pallet, can you all break down Pallet for me? I know we were talking about it earlier, but I don’t have my mouth wrapped around the meaning of those, so.

Will: That’s Pilate.

Miranda: It’s conscious Pilate who You know, who washed his hands of the accusing, the Jesus. he washed his hands.

Jamal: Literal. Great.

Miranda: and then as well was saying, then there’s that. Yet you pilot, you pilot. Pilots this plural. It’s as if they have delivered me. It’s as if they. They are the pilots of an airplane, of a ship. They are con. They.

Nick: Richard’s turning himself into Jesus.

Jamal: boom. That makes so much sense. I just started questioning myself in my head. Thank you all for the clarity. So that’s what it means. Have here delivered me to my sour cross. So you all have brought me to this cross. You all have walked me to my death. You have all, have walked me up the hill, wiped my sweat, helped me a little bit when I got tired. And now you go and sit here and watch me hang on the cross. So forgive you for, you know, not what you do.

Will: Yeah, it’s interesting.

Nick: It’s interesting. Richard really does not like Northumberland. No, he really doesn’t like Northumberland, the.

Will: Engine of this whole rebellion, which again is fascinating because by the time that we get to the Henry Forest, Northumberland is totally lost his mojo. But in this play, Northumberland is the major. He is the major political power in this play.

Nick: Yeah. And he’s basically saying if you read, you know, if you read a list of all the bad things you’ve done, what you’re doing right now would be on it. It would be the main. What you’re doing right now would be the main bad thing you’ve ever done in the book of Heaven.

Miranda: The king. Just a fun geographical fact. Of course. The Northumberlands were always rebelling.

Will: Right.

Miranda: Against the king. Always were.

Will: And.

Miranda: And their. Their ancestral seat is practically in Scotland. Right.

Will: It’s.

Miranda: It’s so far away in Scotland, so no wonder they were always. They were always rebelling.

Will: Well, and our. Our, I’m a. Percy hotspur was my 20th great grandfather. The family fortunes have clearly.

Nick: Wow.

Miranda: How cool is that?

Will: Oh, my God. Family fortune. Like they were. They. They had this ancestral seat in Scotland, and then it some point, the family turned into a strange nebbish, directing Shakespeare out of an apartment in Pasadena. So some poor decisions were made somewhere.

Miranda: Along the line or the right ones will. The right ones.

Nick: they would have loved Pasadena. It’s much warmer there.

Miranda: Right.

Will: Excellent. Jamal. Crystalline. Beautiful. let’s press on. So, my lord Dispatch, read o’er these articles.

Jamal: Mine eyes are full of tears. I cannot see. And yet salt water blinds them not so much. But they can see a sort of traitors here. Nay, if I turn My eyes upon myself, I find myself a traitor with the rest. For I have given here my soul’s consent to undeck the pompous body of a king made glory base and sovereignty a slave proud majesty a subject state, a peasant.

Will: My lord.

Jamal: No lord of thine thou hawked insulting man, nor no man’s lord. I have no name, no title. No, not that name was given me at the function.

Nick: But tis usurped.

Jamal: Alack, the heavy day that I have worn so many winters out, and know not now what name to call myself.

01:45:00

Jamal: Oh, that I were a mockery King of snow, standing before the sun of Bolingbroke to melt myself away in water drops. Good king, great king, and yet not greatly good. And if my word be sterling, yet in England, let it command a mirror hither straight, that it may show me what a face I have, since it is bankrupt of his majesty.

Nick: Go, some of you and fetch a looking glass.

Will: Good. we’ve only got three minutes left, so I’m going to hold us there. And I just want to point out a couple things that left out to me. I think it is significant that you say His Majesty, not my Majesty. and I think I just want to raise the fact that this is where Richard’s humor really starts to kick in and he really starts to deploy it.

Jamal: Right.

Will: I love. Mine eyes are full of tears I cannot see. It’s the glibest fucking thing he could have said in this moment.

Nick: Right.

Will: All right, take that away. so I just want again, I’m not prescribing anything, but as we get more comfortable with the text. Absolutely. If you’re playing Richard, you absolutely have free reign to walk with Bolingbroke. yeah.

Will: He’s dancing between the raindrops. And yet. And also something that leapt out at me again, just to sort of, dial way back to the conversation about. Is it a private conversation or is it a public conversation? I would say that perhaps this is the only time that that shift is made explicit. That Nathan’s playing me off. 246 marked with a blot damned in the book of heaven. All of you. Right. That is an explicit shift from I’m talking to you to My awareness is shifting to the whole room. okay. It’s a pleasure.

Miranda: Can I have 10 seconds? Nathan, just a reminder, this is helpful, that line, but they can see a sort of traitors here. it’s helpful if we remember that he’s using sort there as if it were more the word meant assortment. You know, I can see a whole bunch of traders here, A sort of traders here. I’m not. Not sort of a cheap trader, but I see there’s a whole bunch of you. Thanks.

Will: Beautiful work, everyone. Such a pleasure.

Nathan: Yeah, yeah, no, this.

Will: This was.

Nathan: This is great. I mean, I. I thoroughly enjoyed, the conversation tonight, and. And, I have a little bit of experience only seeing the play. I’ve never worked on it, but, yeah, just all the. All the topics you guys are covering, you know, from the humor Richard finds, and there’s too many things for me to go into to kind of recap, but I promise you, it’s been a very, enthralling and educational and informative couple hours, on my end, so thank you so much. and, I know there’s the no fear Shakespeare and all these modern translations, but. Jamal, when are you coming out with your rendition?

Jamal: Yo, let me tell you this grad school, there’s always Jamal translation. So, you know, give me about another decade. I’m working on some other books right now.

Will: Okay.

Jamal: But I think it will come out because I think it does serve. You know, I know that I translate in the way from the communities that I come from. You know, and, like, sometimes we feel. We talk about this often. Like, Shakespeare is so far, and I have a particular way because it’s just what I know is where I come from. Like, yo, it sounds different, but it is what this is saying, which is why, again, Will, I like that you bring it back close to home. It’s like this is us talking to each other, because that makes it accessible for more people. And so, yeah, it’ll come. Keep reminding me.

Will: Oh, good. Okay. All right.

Nathan: Sounds good. yeah, great. Great work, everybody. thank you all so much. For those watching, come on back, check out, you know, the future Weeks, and check, out the other sessions we’ve been doing. Support, us on Patreon, if that seems right to you. And, yeah, excited for us to continue to dive into, deeper. Deeper into Richard II in our next session. So thank you all so much. Have a great evening, and we’ll, we’ll meet again soon.

Will: Bye.

Nick: Thank you, everybody.

Nathan: good night.

Miranda: Bye.

Jamal: Be good to you.

Nathan: Hey there. This is Nathan. One more time. Thanks so much for checking out the episode today. Please remember to subscribe so you don’t miss anything ahead. If you enjoy what you’ve heard, please let others know. Write a review, post on social media, send an email, tell your entire acting class or just a friend. I sincerely appreciate it. You can tag us @wajpodcast on Instagram, Instagram and Twitter. We’re also on Facebook and YouTube. I’d love to hear what you think of the show. Be sure to check out workingactorsjourney.com for our show notes with additional info and links mentioned in this episode, as well as all the episodes, we’ve got 25 plus interviews and 12 plus workshop presentations. Sign up for the email list so you’re the first to hear about upcoming, projects, workshops, and much, much more.

Nathan: I’m Nathan Agin and enjoy the journey.

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