Week 2 – Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure – Act 2, Scene 2 – The Rehearsal Room [Video, Audio, and Transcript versions]

Stefan

So let’s just, it’s hard. This is one of the strange wonderful things. And we’re being recorded. And Nathan was like, we’ll, just direct. And I, I had coached some scenes for and TIAs in LA three, four times and done some stuff there. And I guess I had a big enough career that he invited me to, to participate. 

But it was such a joy last week. What we discovered about each other is we’re, our nerd level is like 11 when it comes to the text. Right. And it’s kind of nice that we can focus with Charlotte and Paul just on this scene now. Right. 

And Miranda, we had a a million questions and we’re so blessed that you’re, you’re deeply aware of this play. Have you dramaturg this play before because you’re working on, tell us a little about what you’re doing with Jessica right now. 

Miranda

Yeah, so, so Jessica’s play, she, she, as I say, she’s the artistic director at Boston Court Theater. She wrote it, it’s called Measure Still for Measure. It’s an immersive play, at least about the first sort of half of it. So, so there will be, there will be conversations happening in the parking lot between actors and, and so on. And then people can follow, follow pairs of actors around the theater if they wish. 

But then there will be a lot, there’s a, you know, closed circuit TV in the green room and in the dressing room. But it’s basically, it takes place in the course of, of an afternoon. And it is about a theater company that is rehearsing a production of Measure for Measure. The director is also playing the Duke and what could go wrong. 

So, and so it’s, it’s an interesting play because there’s heavy, heavy, there are many passages from Measure for Measure. Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure that are as just said, that are also in Kansky. And, and so, so that’s where, where I was helpful just with the cast. And then they did a reading of Shakespeare’s Measure for Measure two weekends ago. Hmm. I guess public reading and a lot of coaching for that. So, and they’re about to go into tech as well. So, so yeah. So it’s been, if you guys Interesting. 

Stefan

Have you guys ever seen a show at Boston Court in la 

So it’s, it’s kind of all that’s good and bad about LA Theater. 

A strange, strange Millionaire built a 99 seat theater, so, so they didn’t have to pay the actors. I’m just like, that’s true. But then in doubted and hired a huge staff, huge as in like two artistic directors, a managing director, probably a market, someone else, and a marketing like, and, and the whole idea of it, it’s in Pasadena and this really hip cool part of town. And there’s like, I’m not exactly, is it Rothko or is it like Andy Warhol? Like he was a modern artist collector. There’s like an Andy Warhol in one of the hallways, like. 

Miranda

Gosh, I think that’s right. In the, in the loft. Up, up above. Yeah. And to be clear, they don’t just do plays. They do No, they do concerts and musical performances and, and and so on. But it was like. 

Stefan

This mini performing arts center. 

Miranda

That’s that’s exactly. 

Stefan

But it’s 99 seats. 

Miranda

Right. And and they have a, they have a black box, sort of, that’s a large black box and then other, other spaces. So, and, and now just the one artistic director. 

Stefan

And then they, but what they would do in LA is they would call you, you get a call and you’re like, Hey, Boston Cart called me as a director. And then you would go meet with Jessica, two artistic directors, Jessica and Michael, brilliant directors. And they would say, pitch us shows. And you’re like, oh, okay, here I go. Here’s my top six. 

And you pitch them. And if you said the word Hamlet, they’d go, stop right there. One of us has a Hamlet, we’re gonna do, don’t talk about Hamlet. Okay. I guess I only have five. So you would pitch, but their whole point was director driven. 

And it was the greatest process you’ve ever had is six weeks with the best directors in the city with the best actors in the city. And then like 10 previews so you could re really work. 

Do they still do that? 

Miranda

They sure do. In fact, they’ve added a couple more in for this one because they need a lot of work and you know, a noise within, we’re lucky, we’re lucky if they do four preseason. Yeah. 

Stefan

So it was the most weird. 

Miranda

I couldn’t believe it. 

Stefan

Shangrila and I did two shows also. When they would, you’d pitch. They wouldn’t tell you if you had had, if you got a show a year later, I got a call, we’re gonna do your show. And then one time, three days later they called and said, we’re gonna do your show. I was like, what? So it’s an incredible place. They’re the most generous. 

My shows are as good as the artistic directors I work with. And they were the two of the best directors in the city. So that’s the, the theater at Boston Court, I guess, what’s it called now? Boston Court? 

Miranda

Boston Court Performing Arts Center. 

Stefan

I think. Yeah. The street was called Boston Court. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Stefan

So that’s who, that’s, that’s who these people are. And, and they’re just amazing. I did a Madea there and, and I did in their first season. And I did, I’m one of the few directors ask back, I dunno if that’s good or bad ’cause they haven’t called again. But I, I did a government inspector adaptation. So it’s, it’s just, it’s all the things that we want out of the regional theater, which is people deeply committed to the work, work on the flip side and, and they pay the actors. It’s not like they’re, but they, do you kind of wish it was a 300 seat theater? Like a noise within. 

Miranda

I know. Yeah. 

Stefan

Alright. My loves. So that’s who we are. Do you guys wanna intro? I mean, I kind assumed everyone knews either, but Charlotte Paul, will you just introduce yourself just a little bit to Miranda, ’cause you’re not even on the same coast. 

And then let’s just dive into the text for the next, you know, hour and a half. Yeah. 

Paul. 

Paul

Paul Nicholas, actor director, soon to be teacher. 

Miranda

Former heroin dealer, I gather. Former heroin dealer. And you were his best client, I believe Charlotte. Yeah. I, I did. Yeah, I did. She watched. I’m glad you, I’m glad you changed. You know, it’s never too late to reclaim yourself. 

Paul

Well, there you go. You have it. There you go. 

Stefan

Oh, you’re my favorite. 

Charlotte

Yeah. Charlotte, she, her pronouns recovering heroin addict and Canadian. 

I too don’t have guns in my house ’cause I’m Canadian and we don’t do that. 

Although I did shoot a lot of air rifles as a kid, because you can shoot air rifles. Yeah. I’m an actor, director, writer in the Philly area and part of a cool little funky theater company that we’re doing a devised clown piece right now called Citrus Andronicus. 

Which is why I can’t join on Thursday night. ’cause I’m in rehearsals for that. Yeah, it’s a, it’s a play about fruit and Titus Andronicus. 

Miranda

So funny. I love that. It’s very. 

Charlotte

Silly. Yes, that’s, and I’ve done, I’ve done measure once and reading through this again, it was like, oh, right, right. I never figured out that moment. Cool. Cool. 

So I do love the provost. I think provost is one of my favorite roles. It’s. 

Miranda

Just a provost is a great role. 

Charlotte

Great role. Speaking of which. 

Paul

Who is reading Rachel’s parts tonight? Gotcha. 

Stefan

Bear. I’m, and I’m gonna do a, a, an above average job. 

Miranda

And, and Charlotte, your, your last name really is Northeast, is that correct? It. 

Charlotte

It really is. Yes. I, yeah. And yeah. 

Miranda

And my, my first name really is Miranda. There you go. So I like to say, say my parents, did my parents have their witts about them or what. 

Charlotte

I I academic. I have, I have a son called Julian. But before we knew what he was, if it was a girl, we were going to name her iGen. So. 

Miranda

I lobbied for that. I lobbied for that. Couldn’t quite, we, our, our children are William, of course, William, Eleanor and Annabelle. So good English. Yeah. 

Charlotte

There. 

Miranda

You go. Eleanor with an I. 

Charlotte

Ah, nice. Is that, is that a Jane Austen thing? 

Miranda

Exactly. Exactly. She did a Buzzfeed quiz, one of those Buzzfeed quizzes many years ago. Which Jane Austen heroine are you? And she got Eleanor Dashwood. Of. 

Charlotte

Course she did. Yeah. I’m an Ann Elliot all the way through. 

Miranda

Ann Elliot is a wonderful, wonderful. 

Charlotte

Well, persuasion is my favorite, but that’s okay. We, sorry, we’re gonna nerd out on Jane Austen next. We’re there is. 

Paul

Charlotte’s being modest about being a writer. We were just in an adaptation, a stage adaptation of Jane Eyre together, which she helped, she with three other colleagues helped to adapt. And. 

Miranda

She’s about heard that go, heard. 

Paul

That she’s about to go to Connecticut to do her one woman show, which is an adaptation. No, what is the Jane Jane Austen thing? 

Charlotte

It’s a three person show. 

Paul

That’s what I said. Three person show. 

Miranda

Which, and that’s the works. 

Paul

John, how to adapt about Jane Austen. 

Charlotte

Yeah. The complete work for Jane. 

Miranda

Austen Bridge because of Jane Austen Abridge. Yeah. Yeah. I I I love that. I love that. And people dress up and everything because Oh, people go bananas. Yeah. They quote. 

Charlotte

It and then, and then the husbands who’ve been dragged there, they get like, beaten up because they keep interrupting their wives and the wives are show up. I’m enjoying this. It’s very. 

Miranda

Oh, how funny. Oh, that’s very funny. Wow. 

Stefan

You know, our last session, I didn’t reveal that. My university, I have two three J night scholars. 

I have one of my closest friends is like the vice president of the Jane Austin Society. Ja. Of North America. 

Charlotte

Yes. 

Stefan

Is that what it is? 

Charlotte

Yeah. The president of Jasmine came to see our first production of Jane Austen, a bridge and loved it. So we got the jazz. So. 

Stefan

That’s great. Sure. A lot. Will you please email me this adaptation for my friend who I just, I mean, she’s has, she’s written two scholarly books on Jane Austen. 

Charlotte

Really? 

Stefan

This is legit, this isn’t even just like trekky levels of Jane Austen. This is like scholarly levels of Jane Austen. So, and will you, will you send me, or is it, can you send me. 

Charlotte

I I think I need to check with my team. I think so. We, we do have a publication offer on the table. Oh. So I need to make sure it’s cool. Yeah. 

Stefan

Yeah, yeah. 

Charlotte

Yeah, yeah. It is a, it is a loving homage slash parody, but it, we were written by four total Jane Austen nerds. So. 

Stefan

She is, she kind of hates the people that dress up like Jane Austen and everything. Yeah. So she’s, she has her witts about her, and yet she knows, I actually did recently say to her, like, really the pa the dissertation on Jane Austen and the first book on Jane Austen. And she said, yeah, because I’m not dumb. And that’s how you get hired. So she loves Jane Austen, but she’s aware of the popularity. It’s. 

Charlotte

It’s a little, it’s a little scary. It is very fun to do as an actor. Incredibly. I love playing Mrs. Bennett and Mr. Collins. So. 

Stefan

How do you feel about what’s her name’s adaptations? 

Charlotte

Oh, what, what do you mean with. 

Stefan

You? You know, they’re done everywhere. What is her name? They’re. 

Charlotte

Done. Oh, oh, Kate Hamill. Yeah. 

They’re everywhere. That’s all I’m gonna, but she, she doesn’t have a complete works yet and it’s copyrighted. 

She can’t have it. So that was recorded. Oh, good lord. All right. Sorry. Yeah. 

Stefan

I know. I’ve given up. I I’m, my career is over anyway, so I’ll just, all right, well let’s work on measure for measure, shall we? I, from my notes, we got down to about line 86 And my wife said, so what are you gonna do today? And I said, well, we’re gonna work on this on measure. And she said, but you did that last week. And I go, yeah. She said, how far did you get? I go, I don’t, I don’t know, a third of the way through a fourth. Like, that’s how long it takes woman. And then she hit me. And that’s why there’s, anyhow, I’m joking. Of course not. So what’s so awesome about Miranda, you being here is, we actually, and and we know this play pretty well. I’ve directed this play. 

We had a million questions. 

And so we’re about to hit you with even more. And we have, I don’t know if I, I don’t wanna speak for Paul and Charlotte, but we had, we were having fun. 

We’re not scansion nerds, but we were definitely curious about just the level of pronoun usage in this scene, the shared lines, if those are a thing anymore. And just, so I think what we should do, y’all, is continue working the way we were. And Miranda will join in as we just slowly work through and ask our questions. And if we can just ask all our questions tonight, maybe that’ll help us on what’s next. Does that make sense? Any And before we move on, great. Paul, thank you for the, the thumbs up. Does anyone else have anything they wanna like, share before we dive in? ’cause I’m terrible at company. I, I’m notorious. 

I I will never do a theater game if I don’t have to. I just wanna get to work. So not never a good thing. So does anyone want any discoveries before we launch in anything we wanna share? Great. Pick it up please. From line 86, Angelo pray you be gone. 

And by the way, what we’re doing right now, Miranda is just, anyone can call, hold anyone can. If you, if you’re like y’all, you’re missing something there. Just, and our goal tonight is to get as far as we get. I have no goals. 

All right. Here we go. Pray You be gone. Line 86. 

Paul

Where you be gone. 

Charlotte

I would to heaven. I had your potency and you were Isabel should it then be thus? 

No, I would tell what tour to be a judge and what a prisoner. 

Stefan

I touch him. There’s the vein. 

Paul

Your brother is a, a forfeit of the law. And you would waste your words. 

Charlotte

A house. Why all the souls that were, were forfeit once and he that might the vantage best have took, found out the remedy. How would you be if he, which is the top of judgment, should but judge you as you are? 

Oh. Think on that. And mercy then will breathe within your lips. Like man knew made. 

Paul

Be you content fair made. It is the law. Not I condemn your brother. Were he my kinsman brother or my son? It should be thus with him. He must die tomorrow. 

Charlotte

Tomorrow. 

Stefan

In good hold. So tomorrow is the new information. Yeah. Right. And there’s this, and so anything in here, in this half page that y’all wanna explore? The, the the Yes sir. Go ahead Paul. 

Paul

And he that might the vantage best have took, found out the remedy. I’m sure if I look at it long enough, I’ll figure it out. Why all the, why all the souls that were were forfeit once and got that. 

And he, that might the vantage best have took, found out the remedy. And the he is capitalized. Does she mean God? Yeah. 

Stefan

But let’s unpack it. ’cause you’re right, God’s, god’s remedy is what? 

Paul

Yeah, yeah. Good question. God’s remedy is not death, is it. 

Stefan

Miran? 

Miranda

Sorry, I’m pulling up. I have the ardent, the third ENT in front of me and I was trying to pull up the folder, which of course Oh no do. 

Stefan

It. Which. 

Miranda

All reading from me, you know. 

Paul

And he and he that might the vantage best have took meaning he that can see all. 

Charlotte

Yeah, that’s the way I took it. 

Paul

He that can see all found out the remedy for the souls that were forfeit. 

Miranda

Right. So another, another way of thinking of it is God, having been all who is almighty could have taken advantage is what we would say today. Who could have done so actually provided the remedy, which would’ve been the crucifixion of Christ, thereby saving, you know, according to this, these tenants thereby saving mankind. 

Paul

So is there a double meaning advantage here? Meaning an abbreviation of the word advantage and also viewpoint vantage. 

Miranda

Sure. Absolutely. You know, it, it, it, I think thinking of it as meaning, opportunity or, or advantage, which would more closely align with our, our use of the word advantage. But so but also, yeah, exactly. Also the viewpoint. I think as well, you, I will say one thing that I was very struck by in measure, for measure that I hadn’t focused on, is that there’s the usual number of neoism, Shakespeare and neologism. But, but a lot of them occur only in this play throughout the canon, which is, which is interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Fun fact also, the word substitute occurs more often in this play than in any other play. 

Moreover, it occurs more often in this play than in all the other plays combined. So linguistically, there’s a reason why this play. I, I mean this play is tough, tough for me. Yes. You know, and, and there’s a reason why I think. 

But, but yeah, so, so I think there was a point which is that I think, you know, vantage carries multiple meanings, opportunity, advantage, perspective. And, but the idea is that God, God is the one who could have just condemned all mankind, but in, in fact actually provided the means for mankind. Salvation. 

Does that make sense? 

Stefan

So I was just traveling through Italy a lot. ’cause my university has a campus there and every freaking church has a last judgment. Yeah. You think of the famous Michelangelo where crisis like condemning everyone, his arms are like, you are going to hell and you’re going to hell. And I think that’s an image for the Renaissance. Elizabethan. 

I think it’s fascinating and you can explain to me like these are, this is a Protestant world talking about Catholics, right? And but that idea of Christ who went through the most came up with the best solution, which is mercy. 

He was also a figure of judgment. But he chose mercy. 

And so how would, how would you look? Right? I’ll think on that. And, and Mercy then will breathe upon your lips. Like man made new, like, man, new made maid apologies. Like, man, new made. 

And she’s trying to make him a new right. He’s trying to like, we’re going, look, we’re looking for see change in you. If you’ll look at what Christ did, you will be changed. 

And one of our big questions we had last Miranda was what, how does she get him to change or see the world differently and what happens to him when do, and one of my big questions can be for next, next re next rehearsal for Right, for both of you, Charlotte and Paul, is this is such a great scene as both of you get hit with something you weren’t weren’t ready for. 

And you both get a cool acting change, a moment of realization, right? Hmm. And we just have to clock it, find it, and make it visceral and yeah, that’s gonna be our game, right? That’s our goal. Find that story. 

All right. Can we just read again? ELAs ELAs? Mm. Angela A. Little thing. Don’t hit that. Your hit brother. 

Paul

Got you. Yeah. 

Stefan

Yeah. It’s weird though because a, as much as our ear doesn’t want to hear the pronoun for all Shakespeare, look at the second line. Your brother is a forfeit of the law and you Wow. Right? Like she, he is hitting pronouns through this scene. Like he normally never does. Unless I’m really wrong. Miranda, of, of Shakespeare and Folger. No. Yeah. 

Miranda

No, I think you’re right. Okay. 

Stefan

Very nervous around scholars. 

Miranda

Oh, please, my friends. No one needs to feel that way. I, let me, I will just quickly say, every time I work with a new director on a Shakespeare production, they, they’re always very apologetic when they say, you know, I think I need to cut this, I need to cut that, I need to amend this. I say, good. You know, I, I mean no baro here. So, okay. And by the way, they’re texts, but they’re scripts. This is why within the field of Shakespeare studies, I focus on Shakespeare in performance because they aren’t complete until you guys bring the magic and make it, make it real. So I, I’m, I’m here for the assist. That’s all. I love it. Don’t be nervous. 

Don’t be nervous. 

Stefan

Thank you. And also, we’re here to learn. We’re all nerds. All right. Why don’t we pick it up unless anybody wants to start from anywhere else. 94. Paul, your brother. 

Paul

Your brother is a forfeit of the law. And you, but waste your words. 

Charlotte

Ala Why all the souls that were, were forfeit once and he that might the vantage best have took, found out the remedy. How would you be if he, which is the top of judgment, should but judge you as you are? Oh. Think on that. And mercy then will breathe within your lips. Like man new made. 

Paul

The you content fair made. It is the law. Not I condemn your brother. Were he my kinsman, my, were he my kinsman brother or my son? It should be thus with him. He must die tomorrow. 

Charlotte

Tomorrow. Oh, that’s sudden. Spare him. Spare him. He’s not prepared for death. Even for our kitchens. We kill the foul of season. Shall we serve heaven with less respect than we do, minister to our gross selves? Good. Good. My Lord be, thank you. 

Who is it that has died for this offense? There’s many have committed it. 

Stefan

I was sad. 

Paul

The law has not been dead though it’d have slept. Those many had not dared to do that evil. If the first that did the ICT infringe had answered for his deed. Now his awake takes note of what is done. And like a prophet looks in a glass that shows what future evils, either now or by remiss now new conceived. And so in progress to be hatched. Mm. Hold on, hold on, hold on. 

Charlotte

Yeah. 

Paul

A whole lot of commas here, Mr. Williams. A whole lot of commas. Okay, here we go. Now is awake takes note of what is done. And like a prophet looks in a glass that shows what future evils, either now or by remiss, new conceived. And so in progress to be hatched and born are now to have no successive degrees but air they live to end. 

Charlotte

You show some pity. 

Paul

I show it. Most of all when I show justice for the, I pity those I do not know, which for the, I pity those. I do not know which a dismissed offense would after gall and do him. Right. That answering one file wrong lives not to act another be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. 

Charlotte

So you must be good. 

Stefan

Let’s just hold there. I have no notes whatsoever. I just, I just want to take a pause ’cause you guys just did an amazing amount of Shakespeare. So let’s just unpack if you have any questions or comments. And there’s a new event here because it clearly Isabella on her. So goes to another level, right? 

Paul

Without being, without being encouraged or prompted to for the first time. 

Stefan

Oh. 

Charlotte

Damn it. 

Stefan

Show off. You could write a paper on that. 

Paul

I just noticed it. 

Stefan

It’s gorgeous, actually. You’re right. You’re right. And, and, and yeah. Yeah. She’s in it now, right? She’s really in it. So you and she uses that pronounce. So you are an asshole, right? It’s just like, but why don’t. 

Charlotte

Back? It feels like an argument between lovers. Oh yeah. There, there’s moments where it just, it just, they, they they have a familiarity That’s a little alarming. 

Stefan

I’m gonna send you guys a, a a, an article written by my colleague who basically points that out based, based on, based on their shared lines, that shared lines have an intimacy, which, which Bess speaks something really well intimate. 

Yeah, absolutely. Like they’re, they’re, they’re of a, they’re, they’re vibing a amazingly well, why don’t we go back 1 0 8 maybe 

on the tomorrow revelation. Anything in here? Anything Miranda, you wanna point out you think we missed? Or maybe the only thing I can think of is, yeah, go ahead. Go ahead, please. No. 

Miranda

No, no, you go ahead. 

Stefan

No, no. I just, I just, Paul stopped too. Something’s, I don’t know what the answer, but something is up with Angelo’s basically wine line one 17 to 1 26. He gets word salad kind of. Yeah. That’s one sentence, 

right? That is one sentence. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Stefan

Which is a shared line at the end, which means he doesn’t land the plane. 

Do we wanna unpack that at all? Or, or Miranda, any, any other thing. 

Miranda

You know, really just yet another example, you know, of, of, there’s something about, this is why I love working in theater, because hearing lines, I noticed something, you know, of course Isabella’s argument there to, to Angelo, he that is Claudio. He’s not prepared for death. And even for our kitchens, of course that anticipates barine, you know, later on who will in the play. And we’re not doing that scene, I recognize. But of course bar Barine is, you know, I will not consent to die today. I’m not, and you know, the Duke gun fit to live or die. So, and just that notion that you do have to be ready, you know, spiritually to, to meet death. It’s, it’s introduced here, which I had not heard before. 

But yeah, that, that’s a mouthful. That, that speech of, of Angelo’s and, and your point Stefan, about how, how he ends it on the half line. And then Isabella, if we’re gonna be nerd nerdy about the scansion, she, it’s a, it’s a feminine ending. So she completes it, but not, not perfectly. And yet with the, with the extra right of the extra syllable and that word is of pity is just amazing. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, ooh, wow. Great stuff. Great stuff. ’cause pity. 

Charlotte

Pity is such a me, like, it just falls outta your mouth kind of word. 

Miranda

It’s. 

Charlotte

Like, it’s not like dread or something. 

Miranda

Yes. It’s like, yeah. 

Stefan

It’s pity. 

Miranda

Yeah. Yeah. And then I just, I had a question really, and I don’t know the answer to this, but, but you know, maybe the, the three of you do. But we, we’ve talked a lot in Jessica’s play about, about the scene and how they’re really, you know, they’re, they’re, there’s an element I think of which they’re enjoying sparring intellectually with someone who’s their match. You know? 

And I wonder what, what you, especially, you know, what you all think of that, but Charlotte and Paul, what you think, if you think that’s an element, and again, as they say in the 12 step programs, anything, I say, take what you like and leave the rest, you know, if it’s helpful, great. If it’s not, don’t worry about it. But. 

Paul

Absolutely, absolutely. That he is, pardon the, the term turned on by her. Amazing For sure. 

We learn later on that he left someone at the altar because her dowry wasn’t right. 

Miranda

Right. 

Paul

Insufficient funds. And he walked away from that check. And here’s someone who has no dowry, she’s about to join a convent and he wants to, to be with her. Now, maybe you could make the argument he just wants to be with her sexually, but I don’t, he says it that it’s not, it’s, it’s not just that. So yes, absolutely, he’s excited by someone who can match him. Witt for Witt. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Paul

I’ve asked Charlotte to help me out and every once in a while gimme something intelligent to say. And she just texted me that. 

Stefan

Well, I think. 

Paul

She knows I’m not, she knows I’m not that bright. 

Miranda

I doubt that’s the reason. 

Stefan

You, I’m actually quite, I was thinking honestly, quite honestly, Paul, about working with you on, on Angelo and just thinking, you’re so intellectual, you’re so smart. It’s gonna be an interesting exploration actually, who’s someone who explores, who discovers something, something erotic, aeros being a thing. But I don’t think Shakespeare has an image in any of his plays where it’s just erotic. 

Maybe Romeo and Juliet, but they’re young. I was, that’s. 

Paul

Right where I was going. That’s right where I was going. Really? 

Stefan

Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. And I’m, I haven’t. 

Paul

I’m not sure, but maybe. 

Miranda

And, and, and e even there, you know, Shakespeare’s, I, I’ve talked and thought about this a lot over the years, but Shakespeare’s women are always on a higher spiritual plane, right. Than the men. And, and the, the, the sort of most admirable men are the ones who, who recognize that the woman can teach them something about how to love better, you know? And, and we, that’s what I think that’s where we have to be content, because otherwise, you know, it just, we just are just thinking, you know, Orlando doesn’t deserve Rosalind or Cino doesn’t deserve Viola on and on and on. But, and even with Romeo and Juliet, I think Romeo does recognize that she’s, you know, so much higher than he is. 

So there’s that maybe is there. Yeah. You know. 

Charlotte

So from Isabella’s point of view, you know, we get to hear Angelo’s, you know, response to it, whether he’s welcoming it or not. We don’t get to see that in Isabella. We, we just know she’s fighting, fighting, fighting. So whether she’s aware of this vibing or not, is, you know, I I I think she sees her opportunities and goes with me, but I, it, it is interesting to, and I, I remember when I got this, you know, assignment, I was like, I’ve never explored what Isabella is as a sexual being, and not that it applies here in this particular scene, but like, she, she goes into the convent to escape the hideousness that is vi Vienna because she’s scared for her safety. But what does that mean? Like, how aware is she of ourself as like a, a, a, a kernel human? 

And I don’t know the answer to that, and I don’t know what it means here, but it’s just interesting. We don’t get that reflection. 

Stefan

But my mother always had this great line. She said, everyone needs a little flirting every day. 

Charlotte

Your mom’s very smart. Oh, oof. 

Stefan

And, and I think what she meant, and she was administrator at a university, and what she meant was, we all wa so what is flirting, right? What is the act of flirting, which is strangely erotic. It is letting someone else know that you wanna play a game with them, right. In a sense, like it’s the hardest scene to direct as a director and you’re all directors, right? A flirting scene is like, well, what’s my objective to get with that person? What’s your objective to get with that person? What’s the problem? 

The game, right? The like, I need some game. 

If I don’t have some game, I have no something. Right? And I think maybe what Miranda is talking about, or, or maybe what I wanna talk about, which is there’s a game between Charlotte and Paul, which arrives at, at, at arrows. There’s another way to, this is my academic world, but another way to use the term erotic or aeros is the, the desire to be fulfilled. Nothing to do with sex. Right? It’s the desire to be fulfilled. And so when you meet somebody that you can flirt with, and it doesn’t matter who they are, the i it’s a partner and you, and I think the two of them discover a sparring partner here. And they don’t even know it. They don’t know they were looking for it. 

And when they discover it, it’s like Kurt Vonnegut has this great line where he’s like, you know, that moment when you dance with a perfect stranger and you dance perfectly with them, you never forget it. Hmm. That’s what happens here. There’s a, a dance happens. And I think that, that both of them are just have this moment of like, oh crap, you and I, and we all, so in the, in the south, I don’t know how many of you’re from the south, but in the south you can insult someone with the phrase, you know, like, oh, you poor thing. Right? You can just. 

Miranda

Bless your heart. 

Stefan

Your heart. 

Paul

Bless your heart, bless your heart. 

Stefan

But whatever it is, yeah. In New England, they just come right at you like, right. But when there’s a dance available with language, we get turned on by it. And I think there’s a dance discovered between Angelo and Isabella and we’ve gotta figure out where. 

Paul

And a question I have, it’s a real question is when does Angelo discover it? Because he doesn’t talk about it until after the scene. 

Stefan

Agreed. When. 

Paul

You go, wait, what just happened? Wait. 

Stefan

And maybe it’s there and I won’t plan, I don’t wanna plan it. But I really, I’ve thought about a lot about today and trying to say to you guys like, Hey, we kind of need to deliver a story. 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

And I don’t know where it happens. Can we just be open to when it might happen? And honestly, on the day, I don’t know when it happens, it might happen literally when she walks in the room, Paul, there’s a really weird moment where you go to the provost, you go, Hey, go do this. Make sure she’s, you know, she has a place to give birth. She walks home and you go hang out for a second. 

Like, is it literally the moment you see her where you’re like, oh, don’t leave. I dunno. 

Miranda

We, we, we called that what the actor playing, the actor who’s playing Angelo. And Jessica’s play called that. It said, is this just a Mike Pencey moment? You know, I won’t, won’t have dinner with, you know, alone with a woman who isn’t my wife. So, so I think that’s really interesting, you know, is that, does he always do this? You know, or, or is it, oh wait, I, I don’t wanna be alone with her. You know, that’s a great question. I think, yeah. 

Stefan

It’s just a question. Yeah. Well, let’s unpack Angelo’s speech. The law has not been dead. 

And just see if there’s any questions in there and see where, where, where the logic. ’cause y’all, the great way to look at the scene is both of you’re really smart and you arguing about awesome ethical questions. You’re both lawyers, just look at this as a sheer argument for the re for the next hour, what kind of argument is each one using? So here’s your argument, the law, just pick it up from there. Please, if you. 

Paul

Don’t mind, Stefan. Sure. Yes. It might be, it might be useful or informative to go back two lines into Isabella’s because that’s kind of where it starts. She says, who is it that have died for this offense? There’s many have committed it. Awesome. And that’s what I’m responding to. 

Stefan

Great. Let’s be, let’s begin there, right? Because you’re right. Just if we were just so y’all, if we take ourselves out of the whole arrows thing and we’re literally just, there’s a rule and should someone be punished for said rule. 

I’m about to go into academia for a year. There are a lot of rules I let slide and some I enforce. 

So let’s pick it up there. Thank you Paul. Absolutely. Who is it? One 14. 

Charlotte

Who is it that have died for this offense? There’s many have committed it. 

Stefan

I was said. 

Paul

The law has not been dead, though it has slept. Those many had not dared do that evil. If the first that did the edict infringe had answered for his deeded, now is awake takes note of what is done. And like a prophet looks in a glass that shows what future evils, either now or by remiss, new conceived. And so in progress to be hatched and born are now to have no successive degrees but air to live, to end. 

Charlotte

Yet show some pity. 

Paul

I show it most of all when I show justice for then I pity those I do not know which a dismissed offense would after gall and do him. Right. That answering one file wrong lives, not to act another be satisfied, your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. 

Stefan

Okay, mento. Si. Okay, perfect. By the way, Paul, I understood the entire logic of that speech. Anybody questions And from logic, I mean, your argument was so great. Even your little dash two lines. 

Now, I love that Isabella’s retort because you’re right. Right? You’re like, if I don’t, if I don’t impose the law, bad things happen later. Right? Isabella’s got no place to go. 

Paul

Yes, yes. He’s being general, but I think he’s also being specific, specific. If, if someone commits a crime and I let it go, I’m hurting the person who got hurt by that crime specifically. And also he ask he’s being general. Yes. Isn’t he Miranda? Isn’t he? 

Miranda

He he’s being specific. He’s being general. He’s, he’s it’s in the present. He’s in the future. I I’m also amused by the third ardent editors who note the speech is confusing. Right. Because it uses the metaphor of avian or reptilian conception eggs and birth hatching of the egg to express two related threats to public morality. This is the kind of note the Arden editors sometimes put in that I, I find doesn’t help. But, but, but, but it’s interesting. But, but yes. Yes. That’s what I think Paul. 

Stefan

But they live. 

Miranda

I think he’s also, and this is an idea that comes up that he, he repeats again in two four. But, but I think he’s also talking about, 

he, he is talking about the, the, certainly the, those who are hurt now, those who may be hurt in the future, but also, is he, is he talking about obliquely? Is he talking about not letting a a, a sinner sin keep sinning without being punished for it? I don’t know. But just thinking about Angelo and where he, where he is. 

Paul

Is he also, when he says which those I do not know which a dismissed offense would after Gaul, is he also saying which a dismissed offender could go on a dismissed offender could go on to hurt somebody else? Is he also saying that? 

Miranda

That’s that’s what I think, that’s how I read it. Yes. Yeah. And, and he says that it’s something very similar in two four again. 

Stefan

Yeah. If you don’t 

stop someone, they’ll, they will act again. 

Miranda

Right. 

Stefan

Right. I struggle as a professor, when do I say no, never again. Right. When is there no mercy? Because every time I let you do it again, it, it yields this, it, it affects everyone else. It’s not good for the body politic. 

Miranda

Right. Right. And it. 

Charlotte

You get a lot of mothers dying repeatedly that your students have. Yeah. My my husband deals with that. He’s like, how many grandmothers do. 

Stefan

I really, I miss my calling. I want to create what’s called an excuse app where you have an app on your phone. Right. And when the student, and, and it, it, it downloads your, your, your class list. And it has 12 common excuses. And when the student’s like, well, my aunt is sick, you’re like, oh, hold on. Mm mm click. Oh, great. You use that on the state. So it’s gone. So you can’t Yeah. 

Charlotte

Uncanny. 

Stefan

It’s, it’s, it’s, I I missed, I missed it. Okay. But Isabella, when you say get, show some pity, that’s the only answer you can have. Okay. From a logic, ethical, theological point of view. It does. Yeah. Okay. Fine. Pity. Which is a callback to when Christ had that vantage, he that had the vantage, okay, let me repeat myself, asshole. Yet shows him pity. So can we just unpack Paul’s response? 

I show it, most of all, just pick it up from there. 1 27 ish. 

Paul

I Oh. Yet show some pity. Is that where we’re starting. 

Miranda

Yet? Show. 

Paul

Some pity. I show it. Most of all when I show justice for, then I pity those I do not know which a dismissed offense would after gall and do him. Right. That answering one file wrong lives, not to act another be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. 

Stefan

What does that mean? And do him Right. That answering one foul wrong lives not to act. Another. 

Paul

A a guy who, well, he said him, so I’m gonna say a guy. Okay. A guy who commits a crime if I let him get away with it, and I’m not doing right in the eyes of the law or in the eyes of heaven because he’s going to do it again. Which is what Miranda said earlier. 

Stefan

Great. Thank you. I was just dumb feeling dumb. 

Miranda

Hardly. I, and I think, I think perhaps there’s even two objects here. I pity those, I do not know whom a dispen which a dismissed offense would after gall and do him write, do the other guy write by not letting him continue to, to sin. So, right. So it’s, it’s very complicated. 

But it’s a great, that’s that’s how I read it. Yeah, exactly. 

Stefan

My. 

Paul

Neighbor, oh, you know, doing him a favor as well by not allowing him to I. 

Miranda

See. Exactly. Exactly. And that’s, that’s Angela’s rigid understanding of pity. You know, this is how he’s answering Isabella. Yes. He’s saying, oh, I am showing pity to, you know, to both the potential victim and the perpetrator. So. 

Stefan

‘Cause I’m helping the person, the person who did wrong, if I don’t show them they did wrong, they’re gonna keep doing it. 

Miranda

Exactly. And keep thinning. And I’m also helping future victims. 

Stefan

Yeah. I only get letters from students that I was an asshole to. 

Miranda

Huh? 

Stefan

You guys like yeah, you get the letter I call the letter where they’re like, sorry I was an asshole, but thank you for kicking me out of the show because I was, I never showed up. I was late for two months. Oh. 

Miranda

That’s interesting. Yeah. 

Stefan

Yeah. And then three years later you get the letter. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Stefan

Yeah. And so it sucks. ’cause we have to be Angelo’s, especially to guys 1822. 

Miranda

Well, I was gonna say those frontal lobes. 

Stefan

It’s unfortunately very, very true. I’ve seen it too many times in a good way. Guys who take a year off, come back human. It’s awesome. Okay. Be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. Now this goes all the way back to tomorrow. So y’all, just from a big arc point of view for the audience, just remind yourself for 20 lines. He said, he said at 1 0 9, he must die tomorrow. Tomorrow. 

Argument, argument, argument, argument, argument, argument. Be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. Let’s, we’re done. Cool. 

Okay, let’s pick it up then there. How about from Be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. 

Paul

Be satisfied. Your brother dies tomorrow. Be content. 

Charlotte

So you must be the first that gives this sentence and he that suffers. Oh, it is excellent to have a giant strength, but is tyranny to use it like a giant. 

Stefan

That’s well said. 

Charlotte

Good, great men. Thunderer as JoVE himself does. JoVE would never be quiet for every pelting petty officer would use his heaven for thunder. Nothing but thunder, merciful heaven. Thou rather with thy sharp and sulfur bolts splits the unedible and gnarled oak than the soft myrtle. But man, proud man dressed in a little brief authority, most ignorant of what he’s most assured is glassy essence. Like an angry ape plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven. As makes the angels weep. Who with our spleens, with all themselves laugh mortal. 

Stefan

Oh to him. To him. When he will s relent. He’s coming. I perceive it prohibit she win him. 

Charlotte

We cannot weigh our brother with our ourself. Great men may jest with saints, ts witt in them, but in the less foul pronation. 

Stefan

Thou right, the right girl. More of that. Okay, good Hold. Woo. 

Charlotte

Because. 

Stefan

That’s new. 

Paul

I wanna say to her, I wanna say to her, after that long speech, what the hell you just say to me who you think you’re talking to. 

Stefan

So why don’t we unpack. 

Paul

There’s some serious insults in there. 

Stefan

There is, there is. If you were, I guess if you were a great person, it’s okay. But the less you know. Well. 

Paul

Not only that, but she says, but man, dressed in a little. 

Charlotte

Authority. 

Paul

Dressed in a little brief authority. Most ignorant of what? He’s what? 

Charlotte

Yeah. You’re a, you’re a puppet. You’re a fucking puppet. You know. 

Paul

Who I’m. 

Stefan

Okay. No, I I obviously there’s Porsche writ all over this, right? 

Do we know Oh, semi geometer that you are Is merchant before or after this? 

Paul

Just about to ask that question. 

Miranda

Merchant is before this. Okay. Not much. But it’s before. Yeah. This was about maybe we think around 1604. Late 1604. Never published in Quarto, which suggests it wasn’t all that popular. Right. But, but merchant, merchant is, I think merchants just before 1600, like 1598 to 1600 roughly. Merchant is a mature comedy. 

Stefan

Yeah. So called. And so this, we teach it a lot at UD because we are in Italy a lot. And so we go to Venice and half the do not eyes when you do it in the, in the ghetto in Venice is kind of effing cool. Yeah, yeah. 

But this idea of what Mercy is, let’s unpack what mercy means. So could we just go from, could great men thunder and just take our time. 

Charlotte

Could great men thunder, as JoVE himself does. JoVE would never be quiet for every pelting petty officer would use his heaven for thunder. Nothing but thunder. 

Stefan

Alright. So is great Men, they aren’t great. Is that what you’re saying? Could great men, as in it’s great, as in men who have office. 

Charlotte

I think they’re not truly great. Yeah. Men. Men who have power. Yeah. Yeah. If they, if they took on Jo’s, whatever, they would just blast all the time. Right. Like. 

Miranda

Right, right. 

Charlotte

But not even Jo does that. Right. Right. Yeah. 

Stefan

And this, I don’t know if this is the first shift out of the Christian myth to the, the, the, the pantheon, the Olympic gods. But he does that a lot, doesn’t he? Where he, he’ll go, Christ, but he’ll also put job. Right. It’s the same authority. Right. 

It’s weird. Wait a. 

Paul

Minute, I’m sorry. I’m, I’m, I’m, I’m the least intelligent person on this call, so bear with me. 

Miranda

That’s hardly true. 

Paul

Could, could, if great men could make thunder way that God does, God would never be quiet. 

Charlotte

Yeah. 

Paul

For every halting petty officer, which is not a great man. Right. 

Miranda

Exactly. There’s a contradiction there. Yeah. Would. 

Paul

Use his heaven. The, the heaven. He did not capitalize the H in his so would use the heaven that me a petty officer, what little heaven I have. I would use it for thunder. 

Nothing but thunder. 

Charlotte

So. 

Paul

That’s saying that great men sometimes think they’re great, but they’re really petty officers. Is that what she’s saying? 

Charlotte

I think it’s an insult. Couched within an insult. Right. Holy shit. 

Paul

Yes. 

Charlotte

It’s like people who call them great men themselves. Great men who, you know, it’s like, it’s like, it’s like dudes who drive mustangs, like, no offense, but you know, they’re making up for something. Yeah. Like, yeah, they were able to afford the car. But anyway. Yeah. That’s the way I read it. Is that right? That. 

Miranda

That is, that’s why I really liked what you said, Charlotte. The great men are men of power. You know, they’re not morally great or, or, you know, intellectually great or anything else. They just happen to have power. And then you just knock that idea out two lines later with the pelting petty officer. That’s all they really are. So, yeah. I, I think that’s an insult. 

Paul

Wait a minute. I think I, I’m sorry. I’m sorry. It’s, it’s, the JoVE would never be quiet. That’s rustling my feathers here. 

Stefan

So Jo, not Jo, not the actual JoVE. 

Paul

But if, well, well, I think, well later on, she makes the point that heaven would rather split a big tough oak than a soft myrtle. 

So if a big, tough, great man used his power for thunder, nothing but thunder, JoVE would punish him. Is that what she’s saying? 

Stefan

I actually think no, JoVE has, there is no JoVE here. It’s guys acting like Jo, then Jo would never shut the F up. 

So if a mall cop, it’s just, if a mall cop got to be the chief of police in a mall, then the chief of police would never stop being an asshole. 

Charlotte

Gotcha. Is they’re dressing themselves in power and bestowing themselves powers upon other people. 

Stefan

Joe’s power. Yeah. Yeah. But he does it. But you’re right, because it seems like JoVE is a, is a, is a, is a real person with agency. But no, it’s someone clothed, like JoVE, someone in the costume of JoVE would act like they were in power, which means they, jo, the person dressed like JoVE would never stop acting like they’re in power. It’s not actually JoVE. 

Paul

I see, I see. 

Charlotte

And and the, the, the, the, the, the sharpened sulfur bolt blitz, the, and wedge. And are the, the idea being that things that are strong and could withstand such a hit are, are that that’s okay or acceptable over this sa like the soft myrtle meaning an easy target, an easy victim, right? 

Miranda

Exactly. Yeah. You show. 

Paul

Mercy to the soft myrtle, you show justice to the tough oak. 

Miranda

Correct. That’s. 

Paul

What heaven does. That’s what she’s saying. Right. Heaven, this is great. 

Miranda

Right. And she’s, she’s addressing Yeah, merciful heaven. She’s speaking to heaven. Oh heaven, you are merciful because this is what you do. She’s, it’s not an exclamation, if that makes sense. You know, she’s saying merciful heaven, thou heaven, merciful heaven rather with thy sharp and sulfurs boat bolt and so on. That’s how I read that. So yeah. So, but it’s man clothed in the little brief authority. And I love what Stefan said about the costume. Like, do, but not really Joe. 

Charlotte

So yeah. The, the turn word with the, but Right. The thou rather the da da and then we get man, proud man. Like, that’s what is there. Okay, great, great, great. 

Miranda

Yes, yes. Yeah. 

Stefan

And what they do, and what, by the way, what’s so important about this, Paul, about your questions is this is what you’re hearing. Yes. And I say to my students, the reason theater sucks, and a lot of it does, is I’m only watching the people talking. 

LA this is how I made my career in LA is like, I tell LA and I went, oh, I’m, I’m only watching the actors, not the people listening. Because in LA we’re busy acting. Right. But we’re not trying to get something from someone. You all know this. And so I’m so glad, Paul, that you, that we’re talking this out because that means that Charlotte knows when she lays that line on, you’re gonna hear it a certain way and she wants to change you. And when she, and so that’s what creates the co the conflict between the two of you and the audience is really, the audience shouldn’t be looking at you at all. They should be looking at, sorry. 

They should not be looking at Charlotte at all. They should be only be looking at Paul to see how Paul’s taking it. So I’m glad we’re unpacking this because somehow Charlotte knows the right words to say. Let’s go back to the speech one more time. I even actually think there’s a whole nother layer Yeah. Of insult. It’s just this is very non monal. Yeah. 

Paul

I don’t wanna unpack the end of it too. 

Stefan

Yeah. Right. Yeah. So Charlotte, I think you leave the, the reservation as a nun, or at the very least you get mean here. So could great men thunder take it up from there? 

Charlotte

Good, great men thunder, as JoVE himself does. JoVE would never be quiet for every pelting petty officer would use his heaven for thunder. Nothing but thunder, merciful heaven, thou rather, with thy sharp and sulfurous bolt splits the unedible and gnarled oak than the soft myrtle. But man, proud man dressed in a little brief authority, most ignorant of what he’s most assured, his glassy essence, like an angry ape, plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven. As makes the angels weep. Who with our spleens, with all themselves laugh. Mortal. 

Stefan

What does that mean? Last two lines, as makes the angels weep. I get that. Who with our spleens. 

Miranda

The spleens, the spleen with the seed of laughter has the third ardent editors hopefully. Remind me. 

Charlotte

Yeah, I saw that note. I was like, great, thanks. Yeah. 

Miranda

Because yeah, right, because we, we think of something else. No. 

Paul

Doesn’t sometimes, doesn’t Shakespeare sometimes use spleen to refer to anger? 

Miranda

He does. Or, or more like malice. Yeah. But here I think it’s, it’s in classical and medieval and medi psychological beliefs. The spleen was regarded as the seed of laughter. That reading seems to make sense here, I think in this, in this line. 

Paul

And does laugh mortal mean laugh themselves to death? 

Miranda

Yes. Yes. 

Charlotte

So. 

Miranda

Or or, or laugh themselves to death. Or also they would, they would, because it’s the angels, right? They would laugh themselves into mortality. In other words, laugh themselves out of their own immortality. 

Stefan

So who’s the who? 

Paul

That’s my question. Who’s the who? Yeah. 

Charlotte

Who, who’s the who? 

Miranda

Yeah. Great. Que great. 

Stefan

Question. I think it’s the angels. 

Miranda

Yeah. I think it’s, yes. It’s as. 

Stefan

Makes the angels weep. Who, who have our spleens as in see the world, the funny shit, the way we see it. 

Would all themselves laugh mortal? Does that mean. 

Charlotte

They themselves, but. 

Stefan

They’re weeping themselves dead? 

Miranda

Yeah. Yeah. We Or in Yes. Dead. Or or into mort. Into non, into. 

Stefan

Mortality. Mortality. Go. 

Miranda

Back to non immortality. Yeah. Okay. 

Stefan

Very weird. Charlotte, try to do the logic here. Go back to, but man, proud man. And see if you can take us all the way through from a logic point of view, right? Because you say Merci of heaven, you usually only work on the hardest shit, right? You usually don’t care about the soft myrtle, but man who has a little bit of authority gets obsessed with shit. 

Charlotte

Right. 

Stefan

To the point that the angels fucking weep. Right? Is that the logic? 

Charlotte

Yeah. Or I mean, my other thought was that it is really, this is a very back weird way to say this. You know, when somebody’s being a complete asshole, like, bully and instead of getting angry back at them, you just go, you clown. And it just completely dissipates them. Mm. 

Is that what the angels are doing? Like, you’re so fucking dumb. Like, is it that? I don’t know. I, that’s just, Ooh. No. 

Stefan

No, it’s really. 

Miranda

Good. I like that. I like that. I. 

Stefan

Like that a lot. 

Miranda

Yeah. Yeah. Well. 

Stefan

You just so pick it up from, but, but man, proud man and just work the logic for us. 

Charlotte

Sure. But man, proud man dressed in a little brief authority, most ignorant of what he’s most assured, his glassy essence, like an angry ape plays such fantastic tricks before high heaven, as makes the angels weep. Who with our spleens would all themselves laugh? Mortal. 

Stefan

Good. Yeah. I bought, I don’t know what you just did, but I don’t know Miranda. Like, did you buy it? 

Miranda

I I I not only bought it, I, the syntax clicked into place for me because this is tricky syntactically. But you know, that makes the angels weep. Who, who, if they had our spleens would be, it would be laughing themselves into mortality. Right out immortality. Yeah. That’s the syntax. Yeah. That was great. 

Charlotte

It’s basically taking the, taking the piss out of the bully. 

Stefan

Yeah. 

Charlotte

Okay. 

Stefan

And you know, you’re talking to Angelo and you say he has a glassy essence. You say he’s like an ape. You say you think you are doing something, you’re so assured, but you’re doing fantastic tricks that in heaven would be viewed as the dumbest fucking thing they’ve ever seen. 

And they’ll just laugh at you. 

Charlotte

Oh, so brutal. 

Stefan

Isn’t that what you’re saying? You’re just like, everyone’s, you’re just absurd. I had a, it was an artistic director I worked once with once who was from nor upper east side of New York. And he’s like, he born and raised, and he is like, we’d just be sitting on the corner, we see a guy walk by dressed the way he thought was super cool and we’d be just laughing like, you’re an idiot. You do not fit in any way. ’cause they knew, I feel like the angels are looking at poor Angelo going, oh, once again, this is what you’re saying to Angelo. The angels are going, once again, a guy got a little brief authority. 

Charlotte

And. 

Stefan

We work on the hard shit. Yeah, go ahead. And. 

Charlotte

His is Angelo. 

Miranda

Fucking. Yeah, right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 

Stefan

And, and how do we know that this works at Angela? Because the next two lines, Angela doesn’t speak. He’s been like, share line, share line, share line. And said, Angela has a thought moment. 

And Lu Joe’s like, oh, fuck it. Hey girl. Yeah. Owe to him, to him. When he will relent, he’s coming. I proceed it, pray heaven, she win him. And, and, and he doesn’t get to speak again. He still doesn’t get to speak. 

Charlotte

I feel like this is the prize fighter moment. Like, she’s just like, yeah, fuck it, fuck it. Let’s go, let back in. Like, duh da. Like, and she’s just, she doesn’t, she barely hears Lucio. It’s just noise. 

Stefan

Oh yeah. No, no, they don’t. You are in it with him. Absolutely. Actually, she, and if I were directing this Lucio and, and the provost would have fucking popcorn, they would be like, oh, that worked. That. 

Miranda

Was good. Right? Yeah. Right. 

Stefan

But remember how you got to Angelo, so the two of, you know, the weak spot of the person you’re talking to, right? And so in that great Shakespearean way, you have a mask, you’re showing the, the audience, and you have a weak spot. You’re hiding, hiding, hiding under your armor. And then your, your opponent is able to land something here. 

And you land something, which has something to do with Angelo thinks he, I, and I don’t wanna put, I don’t wanna get inside Paul’s brain, but just know from a, from a logic of the argument point of view. You say what you say that gets Lucia to go, wow, that landed is heaven is laughing at you. 

And he thinks he’s doing heaven’s bidding. He thinks he is right. Not just right as a I’m right, but from a cosmic rightness. 

And that’s, I think what gets him, it’s not just you laughing at him, it’s the fucking angels. Okay. So let’s just keep walking forward unless as someone has anything else that outright the girl more of that Isabella, that and the captain’s, but a collar word. 

Paul

Yes. Wait, where are you? Oh, I got it. Sorry. 

Stefan

One 60. I got. 

Paul

It. 

Charlotte

That in the captain’s, but a choleric word, which in the soldier is flat blasphemy. 

Stefan

Art. Advise of that Morant. 

Paul

Why do you put these sayings upon me? Wait, because why, why you put these sayings upon me. Why I do you put these sayings upon. 

Miranda

Me? Upon me? 

Paul

Yeah. Why do you put these sayings upon me? 

Stefan

Good. 

Charlotte

‘Cause authority though it air like others have yet a kind of medicine in itself that skins the vice or the top. 

Go to your bosom, knock there and ask your heart what it doth know. That’s like my brother’s fault. 

If it confess a natural guiltiness, such as is his, let it not sound a thought upon your tongue against my brother’s life. What? Okay. 

Authority. So, so me like authority tells itself, oh, we have a medicine, but we only take at the top. We only we don’t really drink it. We don’t really take it. 

Miranda

Right. 

Stefan

I don’t know, I’m gonna read it again. 

Charlotte

That I think Harden notes said Veronica can backed me up. But then go to your bosom, knock there, ask your heart death note. That’s like my brother’s fault. If it confess unnatural guiltiness such as his, let it not sound a thought upon your tongue again. So basically like if you see something that’s familiar in yourself, voice it And, and, and pardon him. Or, or, or lessen the sentence or something, you know? 

Miranda

Right. Exactly. Any if, if anything you recognize inside yourself that reminds you of my brother. Even remotely, I think she’s saying don’t, don’t, don’t speak a word against, against my brother’s wife. Right. 

Stefan

Okay. But when, go ahead Paul, please. 

Paul

I think that it here, if it confess and let it not sound, I think is the heart, right? Your heart. 

Miranda

Yes. Yes. 

Paul

And not the fault, but the heart. 

Miranda

That’s like my brother’s fault. If it Yeah. If the heart confess a natural guiltiness such as his, that’s claudio’s. Yeah. Let it not let your heart not found a thought upon your tongue. Against my brother’s life. Yeah. 

Stefan

Okay. Now her argument is this, the first time she makes him stand in the place of the sinner. ’cause it’s the exact same argument earlier, others have done this, why should he be punished? And he says, yeah, he says, law has slept. If I don’t invoke the law, other people would do it. 

So we should enforce the law. And then she insults him and says, you’re just a petty clown to rest in fake authority. Right? And, and you’re, the angels are fucking laughing at you. 

And he says, well, wait, why are you talking about me? So now it’s about me. It’s not about, it’s no longer law. It’s, wait, why are you talking saying that to me? Right? Because she sees it in him. Right? Because remember when earlier she came in, it’s not by the scene, she came in like, almost holy law person, can my brother get off? And he is like, no. She goes, great. I tried like she respected the law and now she’s, it’s a ad hominem attack. Is that the term? It’s a personal attack. 

So hence why he goes, yeah, go ahead. No, Angela Miranda. 

Miranda

I was just gonna say that sort of the psychological brilliance of it, you know, she’s completely deflated his ego, right? With the, with the insults and just, you know, you’re not fooling anybody. And then she kind of goes in for the, for the personal, you know, and he’s completely vulnerable to that as his, as his aside, lets the snow. Right? 

Stefan

And it, but isn’t it the exact same argument you used earlier, but now you make him personalize it? 

Charlotte

He asked for it. He asked. He. 

Miranda

Asked for it. 

Stefan

Where or do you put these things from on? Why me? 

Miranda

Here’s why. Yeah, here’s why. Oh yeah. Like. 

Charlotte

It is a same argument. But now, but like what you’re saying, Stefan, is that instead of the abstract, we, they, whatevers, okay, you wanna play that game, let’s go. I’ll tell you then look in your heart, go on. Do it. 

Stefan

Right. Have you ever felt like this? Which we all know, I don’t know we’re in the play, but we kind of know he’s got that girl that he left at the altar. 

Miranda

We, we don’t know that yet. 

Stefan

Yet. Okay, cool. But Paul can play the shit out of that. ’cause he knows for sure. 

Miranda

For. 

Stefan

Sure. And, and. 

Paul

Some, yeah. That line really hit me when she said, look into your heart, that line hit me. 

Miranda

It’s a great line. Knock there. 

Stefan

And then I don’t know if she knows Charlotte, Charlotte doesn’t, right. Isabella doesn’t know. But the very least Isabella knows to make him go further than just his fake brief authority. Yeah. And I think his fake Yeah, go ahead. 

Charlotte

Well, I think there’s, there’s an okay, all the insults. Yeah. It’s easy to, it’s easy to go. What Isabella’s. Ah, but I think she’s giving him a back of, a bit of his humanity back here by saying, look inside yourself. And if you see something that’s similar like then blah, blah, blah. You know what I mean? I think he’s dressed himself up as this big, you know, and he’s, he is still a flawed human. We’re all flawed. Look there. And if you see something similar, then like there’s hope for you. It’s a little condescending, but there’s hope for you too. 

Miranda

No, I, I love that because that also is an extension. She of her, her sort of Christian arguments. Yes. This is led. He is, you know, without sin among you cast the first stone. It’s very, very basic. The Christian theology. Sorry Paul, I think I cut you off. 

Paul

Yeah, no, no, you didn’t. Am I correct? Is this not at least the second time She has said this in the scene and maybe the third or she has said now she’s saying it directly to me, look within yourself. But she said, how many people have done this and how many people have died for it. Yeah. And I think another time she made a reference to that this is common or something like that. Yeah. Or if you, she said if you, if if God looked at you, if you were like him and he, if you were like Claudio and he was like you. Yeah. So she, this is the third time she’s made reference to it. 

Charlotte

Yeah. The argument doesn’t change all that much. It’s just the points of entry. The points of entry change. 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

And you landed on him. Yeah. Personally, as opposed to figure of justice. Now you. 

Charlotte

Yeah. 

Stefan

Who are, by the way, we all know clothed in little brief authority. Go ahead Paul. 

Paul

We can go a step before a figure of justice. Stefan, normal guy, normal man is would do it. Figure of justice. They make mistakes too. And now you personally, sir, what have you done? Mm. 

Stefan

Right. And look at his, her response. Right? So you finish line one 70, let it not sound a thought upon your tongue. Against my brother’s life. It’s your first aside. I, I don’t know, I gotta go back and, but it’s probably your first aside in the scene. 

Charlotte

I think it is. Yeah. 

Miranda

I think it, it’s. 

Stefan

She speaks and ti sense that my, that my sense breathes with it again, these pronouns he puts. 

Charlotte

That my sense. Oh, weird. Yeah. And so many echoing words. So many. It’s, I’ve never seen that many, I don’t think. 

Miranda

Forfeit. 

Charlotte

Forfeit. Pity. Pity sense. Sense. 

Stefan

She speaks and tis sense that my sense breeds with it. Yeah. It’d have to be my, ’cause he hits sense at the end of the line before. 

And then she says, fair you, well he begins to exit and this is one of those, is that a real stage direction? What’s the Arden? Or does anyone care? 

Miranda

I don’t have a stage direction in the Arden. So it’s, it’s not in the, I think it’s in the folio, but yeah. Does the folder have an exit there? 

Stefan

Yeah, I mean I’m on m i t, but Oh. 

Miranda

Okay. 

Stefan

That’s just what I printed. 

Charlotte

This, this den. I don’t know which one you have Miranda, this ardent says Faywell going. 

Miranda

Oh, that’s interesting. I have a third ardent. It has nothing. So. Oh, okay. Weird. Are you I have’s the cover. 

Charlotte

I have this one. 

Miranda

Oh yeah, that’s the second. Yeah, that’s the second. Okay. 

Charlotte

Yeah. This says going here. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Stefan

Are they even sure Shakespeare wrote half of this by the third? We don’t know. 

Miranda

Probably. I always assume if there’s a stage direction, almost always the work of a later editor. Yeah. 

Stefan

Right. But either way she speaks ti that my sense breed with it. 

Beat, beat. I don’t know. Very well he gets out quick. Right. 

So let’s, wow guys, we only have 30 minutes left. 

Charlotte

I know. Oh. 

Paul

Wow. 

Stefan

I speak of guys in that Midwest non. 

Miranda

No offense. 

Stefan

Offense taken that. 

Miranda

No offense taken. 

Stefan

Hey y’all. Alright, let’s just, let’s keep reading. Let right, let’s try to get to the end of it tonight. All right. We got Miranda here. So she speaks inti sense. How about from there? 

1 71. 

Paul

She speaks and to such sense that my sense breeds with it. Very You well. 

Charlotte

Gentle, my Lord, turn back. 

Paul

I will be Thank me. Come back, come again tomorrow. 

Charlotte

Hark how I’ll bribe you. Good. My Lord. Turn back. 

Paul

How bribe me. 

Charlotte

I with such gifts that heaven shall share with you. 

Stefan

You had mar all else. 

Charlotte

Not with fond sickles of the tested gold or, or stones whose rate are either rich or poor or, or as fancy values them put with true prayers that she’ll be up at heaven and enter their air. Sunrise prayers from preserved souls from fasting maids whose minds are dedicated to nothing temporal. 

Paul

Okay, well, come to me tomorrow. 

Stefan

Go to ts well away. 

Charlotte

Heaven, keep your honor safe. 

Paul

Amen. For I am that way, going to temptation where prayers cross. 

Charlotte

At what hour tomorrow shall I attend your lordship. 

Paul

At any time for noon? 

Charlotte

Save your honor. 

Paul

From thee. Even from th virtue. 

Stefan

Good. Let’s hold and then we’ll do that speech again. There’s comedy here in terms of all the little exits, right? She exits and she’s like, Hey, tomorrow what time? 

Just before noon, what? Right. She’s gotten to him. 

That’s basically 180 7 to her exit. 

What? Do anything in here before we launch into his speech? 

Paul

Yeah. Well I, I have questions about the text, but I also Sure. Just wanna tack on. You just said she has gotten to him. Has he gotten to her? 

Stefan

No. 

Charlotte

Well, I mean, sorry, that, I mean, I was just thinking that the, the, the sickles of tested gold, the stones, that’s a lot of embroidery. 

It feels, it feels a little like she could just say gray or like the thing, but she’s like, you’re gonna get, I I I wonder if there’s a little bit of, oh God, what did I say back there? A touch. Just a touch. Not a lot, but, and that, and that. There’s bomb here. There’s a, there’s a bit of an olive branch, a tiny one. I’m not sure. 

Paul

There better be because you just said bribe me and I said what? And you had to say, oh, not with stones, not with gold. 

Charlotte

Right. But like prayers that, that you’re, that there’s a, there’s a heavenly gift. 

Stefan

I love Paul. What are. 

Paul

Sickles by the way? Somebody help me out. What are sickles? 

Stefan

It’s, it’s what the death carries in those, you know, death in the hood. He has a Yep. Yeah. 

Charlotte

So. 

Paul

Then okay, then I, then I really don’t understand, not with fond sickles of the tested gold. 

Stefan

Tested could be a different sickles by the way that I’m speaking of how, what’s the den say? 

Miranda

The den says shackles or, you know, ati. It’s a, a coin, basically. A coin. Oh, sheckles. So it’s a different, yeah. So, so exactly. So not with, you know, worthless coins of, of gold. Basically. Not with, I’m not gonna bribe you with money or gems or any of this stuff. And, and I actually had a question for Charlotte. Do you, do you think she knows what she, I mean when she says, har cow, I’ll bribe you. Good. My Lord turns back. She surely isn’t meaning she’s gonna bribe him with money. ’cause she doesn’t have any, she’s joining the poor Claire’s for heaven’s sake. So, so, and he mishears and, and so, and so she, so maybe that that’s the way into to, I mean, she kind of loves her own eloquence here, I think, and elsewhere, you know? 

Right. And, and, and well, she should, you know, she’s very eloquent, but, but sort of setting up, not with this, that or the other thing, but with all this wonderful, you know, imm, immortal, virtuous 

stuff basically. Sorry, go ahead. 

Charlotte

I mean, I think, I think there is an act of, there’s an act of like, I will pray for you. I will, I will, but I also, and this is my sarcastic cynical self, like, you know, it’s like, oh, I’ll pray for you. Like it’s a, it’s probably not a like God be No, but I think there’s. 

Miranda

Thoughts and prayers. 

Charlotte

Yeah. But I, I do think, I do think there is, I think there’s a moment of of, because he’s so not reticent, but because he’s suddenly, like his arguments of stopped, there’s very little words now that it’s like, oh God, what did I, I need to offer you something. I need to. 

Miranda

Oh, well. 

Charlotte

I’ve been given a bit of a mercy. I’ve been given a bit of a mercy that I get to come back. 

Stefan

Yeah. You, I, I think Yes, true. You discovered crap. This worked. Okay, I’ll bribe you. Right. I’ll give you good things. Right. 

You don’t expect to bribe you, you, you, and I think what you mean is true prayers. 

Charlotte

Yes. Yeah. 

Stefan

And you mean this to be a good thing, which is where I think Paul, I don’t know Paul could play this of Charlotte. So if Isabella comes in and looks at a person and goes, you are a fake mall cop, and I’ll push on your weakness. 

And I win, I do wonder if Angelo, and we’ll see it later, at least Angelo recognizes Isabel is not a true mall cop either. 

And that might give him something to play. Right. Some interest. 

And I do think that when she says, I’ll pray for you, and not only other versions will pray for you, right. Is what she’s saying. Right. That the entire convent is gonna pray for you. And, and so Miranda, I teach at a school where there are lots of nuns and, and many of them are literally I knew as undergraduates and, and they’re Dominicans. Wow. And they’re bad asses and they’re PhDs in musicology and philosophy. Like it’s never a thing. Right? It’s like meeting, it’s like meeting the Amish. 

You don’t go to the Amish and go, really? You go, wow. Right? Yeah. So when you meet a real awesome nun, you’re like, all right, you be you. Right. 

She thinks that’s who she’s saying is gonna pray for you. So when my nuns come up to me and are like, we’re praying for you tonight, I’m like, oh, that’s awesome. Like, I’m like, yes and shit. They know I need it. Right? Other people, like, I’m praying for you. I’m like, okay, off you off you pop. Like, I do not care. But right now, right, Isabella thinks she’s saying something that is a true thing. 

Charlotte

Okay. Yes. 

Stefan

She believes it. And then maybe we have to figure out how much Isabella is mature enough to believe it. 

Charlotte

Hmm. Okay. 

Stefan

I have a lot though. I don’t know. You guys aren’t, so, I have a lot of students who went to World Youth Day. The Pope was in, I don’t know, Spain somewhere. They only say World Youth Day. And like, I’ll meet someone like we saw the Pope and I’m like, you are not, you literally are not mature enough to have any spiritual life whatsoever. 

I don’t care if you’re Amish or Jewish or, or Buddhist. Like you are just a child. Your faith is not, and then you meet somebody, you’re like, oh, you are for real. 

And I don’t wanna live in a world where someone’s faith, whatever it is, isn’t legit when it’s legit. But we’re pretty sure Isabel’s faith is not legit yet. 

Charlotte

Hmm. Okay. Hmm. 

Stefan

Which is, which is what, which is, we, we know the first scene when she’s like, aren’t there more rules? I’d like a lot more rules. Right. And then the, the mother spirit is like, there’s, this is enough. Be a little Right. You’re an adolescent. So I don’t know what to make of this final speech, but I think you can embroider the fuck out of it. 

Charlotte

Great. Great. Good. Great. 

Stefan

Yeah. Let’s just go one more time from fair. You. Well, gentle to my Lord. Turn back. Can I. 

Paul

Can I ask a quick question before we go? Yes, sir. What does temporal mean in this context? I know what temporal means, but for virgins, whose minds are dedicated to nothing temporal. 

Stefan

Nothing in the world right now. 

Paul

So, okay. 

Stefan

Which is a big deal. Did I tell you I have a, I have multiple friends. 

Paul

Who are nothing temporary. 

Stefan

And nothing. So I have some friends. 

Paul

World worldly. 

Stefan

Nothing worldly. I have some friends who are cloistered nuns, and they literally marry Christ. And they put on a, and they live in like Rockford, Illinois. And I had another friend who was like, what the fuck is that? What are they doing? And I go, well, they’re praying all day every day. 

And she’s like, that’s stupid. I go, or it is it you decide. We like Buddhist monks. They’re cool. Why don’t we like Catholic nuns who pray all day and to her right now? That’s a big thing. That’s a good thing. We’ll see. And it also, it might be an erotic thing for this weird dude, let’s take it from fair. You. Well, gentle, my Lord, turn back. 

Paul

Fair. You well. 

Charlotte

Gentle my Lord, turn back. 

Paul

I will be Thank me. Come again tomorrow. 

Charlotte

Hark how I’ll bribe you. Good. My Lord, turn back. 

Paul

How bribe me. 

Charlotte

I with such gifts that heaven shall share with you. 

Stefan

You have mart all else. 

Charlotte

Not with fond sickles of the tested gold or stones whose rate are either rich or poor as fancy values them, but with true prayers that you’ll be up at heaven and enter their air. Sunrise, the prayers from preserved souls from fasting maid whose minds are dedicated to nothing temporal. 

Paul

Well, come to me tomorrow. 

Stefan

Go to ts well away. 

Charlotte

Heaven, keep your honor safe. 

Paul

Amen. For I am go. I’m that way. Going to temptation where prayers cross. 

Charlotte

At what hour tomorrow shall I attend your lordship? 

Paul

At any time for noon. 

Charlotte

Say, your honor. 

Paul

From thee, even from the virtue. What’s this? What’s this? Is this her fault or mine? The tempter or the tempted who sins most ha not she, nor does she tempt, but it is I that lying by the violet in the sun. Do as the carryon does not as the flower corrupt with virtuous season, can it be that modesty may more betray our sense than women’s likeness having waist ground enough? Shall we desire to raise the sanctuary and pitch our evils there? Oh, fine, fine, fine. 

What does thou or or what art thou Angela does thou desire her foully for those things that make her good? Oh, let her brother live thieves for their robbery, have more, have authority when judges steal themselves. 

What do I love her that I desire to hear her speak again and feast upon her eyes? What is that dream on oh oh cunning enemy that to catch a saint with saints does baked thy hook? 

Most dangerous is that temptation that does God us on to sin in loving virtue. 

Never could the trumpet with all her double vigor, art and nature once stir my temper. But this virtuous maid subdues me quite ever till now when men were fond, I smiled and wondered how. 

Stefan

Oh, beautiful Paul. 

Miranda

That’s great. 

Stefan

Really? 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Paul

I’ve noticed this before, but it’s, it’s so striking how many ideas I, I forget what the term is in this kind of analysis, but how many ideas end in the middle of a line? 

And I know people like Peter Brook and some other scholars want you to read the verse and take us a mini pause at the end of each line, which I don’t subscribe to. But how could you possibly, in this speech, so many new thoughts begin in the middle of the line and wrap around to the next line. Am I, am I way off here? Am I wrong? 

Stefan

You’re not. I wonder if there were a Shakespeare scholar online right now who could talk about that. 

Miranda

You’re not, you’re not wrong. And you know, I love Peter Brook as do we all. But I, I don’t, I I don’t, and you all could speak to this in ways that I can’t, but that, that particular recommendation al always seemed to me maybe useful in the rehearsal and if one, once in the rehearsal space, but not in, in terms of performance. But, but I defer all of you on that. If. 

Paul

You think Stefan, and if we have the time, I don’t know if you want me to read it, observing the line endings and hear and see if we learn anything. I don’t know. I I’m not sure if we would learn anything. I feel like I’d be breaking up the thoughts. 

Stefan

So I just read this book, I’ll, I’ll go find it, which kind of through the Shakespeare scholar world on its head, which was basically debunking shared lines. And, and, and then I read that it’s a quite fascinating hi, the history between what we’re gonna call the logic of the line versus the line ending. These two different ways come down to like two people in like 19 0 2, 1 going to the R s E and saying, you have to do it this way, and one going the other direction. 

It’s fascinating. And I, so I, and I worked with this guy who teaches at Lambda and Radha, his name is Nick Hutchison. 

And he is a and he’s a guy who says, oh no, no, there must be that micro little pause at the end of every line, right from the, even from the virtue. What’s this? What’s this? Is this her fault or mine? And I was like, I know, dude. But I think it’s the logic of the line when he, when Shakespeare starts playing with en jam, it, which is, I guess when the line moves the end of the line, the end of the thought moves to the middle of the next line. He does it later in his career, if I’m not mistaken. He kind of discovers it and, and it creates this jumble in a monologue. 

And I, I firmly believe if you obey the logic of the sentences, you’ll arrive in a new place as an actor. And, and, and, and, and, and I still obey IMS and trophies. Like I, like, I wanna be careful. But you’re doing such great work. And what, what’s happening to this character right now, just from a sheer stanis philosophy point of view. This guy is discovering shit as he says it. So don’t worry. 

Paul

Also, Stefan, with, with the scansion conversation, we are contemporary actors performing in a contemporary world. So yes, observe the poetry of it and the meter of it, but we, I mean, we we’re performing for contemporary ears. So we should observe the logic of it. The logic of it should be the priority. 

Stefan

I agree. 

Charlotte

And I always look at this stuff as guidelines is not gospel. 

Stefan

Yeah. 

Miranda

Exactly. And I, you know, I just have to add a noise within, closed their last season, so it closed in the beginning of June with the book of Will, you know, Lauren Gunderson’s play, which is great. But, but I, I must say it certainly renewed my, my respect for not respecting, you know, or not assuming the accuracy of the punctuation or anything else in the first folio. You know, so, so I, yeah, I, I think whatever, it’s, it’s an accurately decision. 

Stefan

My my rule of thumb is whatever’s harder, I’m not kidding. So I, I do think we all make choices that are slightly safer. We all know this. We’ve all taught, we’ve all directed, right? And whatever makes you, if a scan should makes you hit a word that maybe at first glance you wouldn’t wanna hit, we’ll try hitting it and see what happens. 

My example is we few, we happy few, we, we band of brothers, which I just was coaching with this guy, and he said, for he today, who sheds his brother with me shall be my brother. I said, Hmm. Scan it for he today, who sheds his blood with me, shall be my brother. 

And brother became this like event. And that’s my clue is like, if you obey the scansion and it adds a deeper meaning and a more resonant meaning, then freaking do that. But no, it’s not gospel. 

Miranda

Yeah. 

Stefan

So in the, in our 15 minutes, Paul, do you wanna just unpack this speech? 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

Yeah. Let’s just walk through it. 

Paul

I actually, I wanna open the suitcase and have you all unpack it. 

Stefan

Okay. Let’s just go line by line and just be, because we gotta know just from a, let’s just read for logic, right? We gotta know, sense to sense. Let’s just see if in 15 minutes we might not even finish it, but let’s go there. Right? Oh, so shall I, at what hour tomorrow shall I attend your lordship? At any time for noon. So she exits and she, I do think Isabelle is in a place of, well, that went well, right? She doesn’t have a clue. 

Then she leaves and she says, save your honor. So what is this next line from the, even from thy virtue? 

So save your honor is God save your honor. Right? Correct. 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

Okay. 

Paul

It’s, it’s, we, we know what he means. He means, yeah. I need protection from you because you’re gonna get me in trouble, but good. It almost comes out of him involuntarily. 

Stefan

Yes. This whole speech test, doesn’t it? Yeah. 

Paul

So the, what’s this, what’s this? I mean, I’ve heard people work on this play and, and go as far as to say, oh, he has an erection, which I think is right. Not out of the realm of possibility, but I think that’s a little farfetch. 

I think he’s referring to what are these things that I’m saying? 

’cause earlier I said, she said, keep your honor safe. And I said, yeah, because I’m going that way to temptation where prayers crossed. And now I’m saying from the, even from my virtue. So I, I think I’m referring to what are these thoughts that I’m having? Right? 

Stefan

I agree. 

Paul

Or is it possible that he’s talking about his blood flow? 

Stefan

They’re both, it’s the same meaning if I have a thought, if I have a true impure thought, I feel it. Just as if you see your loved one across the room and you’re like, Ooh, I want to go to there to quote whatever third rock, 30 rock. Like it’s, it’s, he is discovering a corporeal sensation. I don’t think it’s like masturbatory, but I think it’s a discovery. And the first part is thought, right? Savior, honor from the, even from like virtue. So the new information is virtue. 

Oh crap, you said the word virtue. Oh crap, what am I attracted to? And now the rest of the speech is just unpacking. What am I attracted to? 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

Keep going. So, so, so does that help with what’s this? What’s this? 

Paul

No, I thought I understood. What’s this? But it it, it, it flushes it out even more. Thank you. 

Stefan

Yeah. I thought I was hearing it. 

Paul

The rest of the speech is what am I attracted to? But there’s, isn’t there also some No, you’re right. I was gonna say, isn’t there some, am I attracted to her? No, you’re right. It, he’s already established that I am attracted to her. Why am I attracted to her? Whose fault is it? 

Miranda

Whose fault is it? 

Paul

Right. And what am I attracted to? Yeah. ’cause even the, the, the hoochie mama on the street couldn’t get me. This, this young maid has gotten me. 

Whose fault is it? Is it the tempter or the tempted? 

It’s not her fault because she’s not even tempting. She’s not even trying to tempt me. 

Stefan

I love the logic. So you start with a question. It’s your philosopher. You start with a question. Who sins the tempter or the tempted? Well, it’s not her. ’cause she didn’t actually do anything crap, which means it’s me. 

Paul

Me. 

Stefan

Right. She didn’t do anything. But it is I that. 

Paul

‘Cause I am the carry-on and she is the violet. And we’re both laying in the field, being nourished, being hit by the sun. And my rotting flesh corrupts her virtuousness. The the bio. Yes. Yep. That I’m calling myself dead meat. 

Wow. 

Stefan

But God, his imagination’s incredible here. Right? His imagination is going, wow. Did she temp me? No, she didn’t do anything. What am I, I am like, you get three and a half lines. Not she nor the jimmy, but it is I that lying by the violet in the sun. Do as a Karen does not as a flower grew up with virtuous season. Like that is like, whoa, dude. 

Charlotte

I, I think there again, it’s it’s an acknowledgement that his body is betraying him. Yep. 

Control is now doing things. And he, he, he, he doesn’t like that, that sensation. And he thought he’d conquered that. 

Miranda

Right? Right. And, and all, all those later remarks about, you know, he scarcely admits his blood flows or his blood is very snow broth or his urine is congealed ice. This I know to be true. You know, all of that. I think it, it, yeah. 

Stefan

And then the next line, once he realizes I am like the this person, he then questions it. Right. Can it be that modesty may more betray our sense than women’s lightness? I think lightness is like sexuality. 

Paul

Oh, I thought lightness was sexiness was beauty. 

Stefan

Same idea. Yes. Same thing. Wantonness. 

Miranda

Wantonness. Yeah. And. 

Paul

Just for clarity, our here, our sense he’s, he means it’s like the royal wi, right? 

Stefan

Yes. 

Paul

My thing. 

Stefan

He’s still it, it’s beautiful that he went, oh crap, I’m attracted to her. Isn’t it cool that he shifts to the royal wi and becomes philoso a philosopher? So he pushes it away for a second. Can it be that everybody loves Pepsi? How is that possible? 

Shall we desire to raise the sanctuary and pitch our evils there? And then the oh 5, 5, 5, 5 5, he, he talks about himself. 

Paul

Here, help me with this part. I get, shall we tear down the safe place the sanctuary and build evil in its place? I get that. But what is having waste ground enough? We meaning does that mean we have enough places where evil exists and we have one sanctuary where people can go to get away from the waste ground and that’s where we’re gonna tear it down and build more evil? Is that what he means? 

Stefan

I think so, but I don’t have the art in front of me. Well. 

Miranda

And waste, and. 

Paul

Again, waste ground has overtones of carry. 

Miranda

Yes. That’s great. Yeah. I I think it’s more sort of available ground, empty, empty space. Vacant loss as it were. You know, so we, there’s plenty of place, there’s plenty of room for, for pitching our evil tents. So do we really have to, there’s. 

Stefan

Prostitutes everywhere and yet now I wanna go for the nuns. 

Miranda

Exactly. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. 

Paul

What the fuck are you doing? Or who the fuck are you Angela? 

Stefan

5, 5, 5, 5. What does that or what aren’t that now? So do, there’s that whole, it’s a whole Shakespeare question. What do I do? Or who am I? 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

What what are you doing? Wait, fuck, what does that mean? Who I am? And now he talks about himself. Keep going just now. 

Paul

Do you want her in a sexual way because of the things, because of the features of her that make her so such a good person. So pure. Yeah. 

Stefan

You’ve tiptoed up. 

Paul

To that idea, her quality for those things that make her good. Wow. 

Stefan

But that’s the new information. It’s dead center in the speech. You’ve tiptoed up to it with the whole waste ground versus the sacred. But here you actually say it. Do you desire her because she is so virtuous. 

Paul

And desire her, he and he qualifies as the desire, desire her foully. 

Stefan

Yes. Good. Yeah. Yeah. It is, it is not. There’s no, he’s not a good person for the way he desires her. 

Paul

And then he says, now. 

Stefan

What’s his next speech? 

Paul

Well, the next sentence says, yeah, well then in that case you should let her brother live. And now I’m gonna explain why thieves for their robbery have authority when judges steal themselves. Which is kind of related to what Isabella was saying earlier. 

Stefan

Awesome. 

Paul

If, if, if the judge is gonna become a thief, then thiefs may as well have authority. They’re the same. 

Stefan

Which which could almost end the sentence, end the speech. Yes. And I love, I read somewhere like try to not speak the next line. Right. Is a great way to look at Shakespeare, try not to speak. Are we done? Interesting. Oh, why am I not done? I’m not satisfied yet. So you think you’re done, thieves great. And now crap, keep going. What do I. 

Paul

What do I love her? That I desire to hear her speak again and feast upon her eyes. 

Wait a minute. Now that, that is different from desiring her foully, right? 

Do I love her? Why do I want to hear her speak again so much? Why do I wanna look into her eyes again? Is it because I love her, right? 

What is I dream on 

there? Is that just what, is that just a face value, what it says? Or is there more under that? 

Stefan

What am I thinking of? 

Paul

What am I think. 

Stefan

About? Yep. What am I thinking about? Oh fuck. 

Paul

Is that a literal question for myself? Like what is it that is, is drawing me? Is it her intelligence? Is it her, her virtuosity? Is it her, I mean her virtuousness? Yeah. 

Stefan

I think so. 

Paul

Yeah. Because I answer it in the next, yeah. In the next two sentences. Oh, cunning enemy, which is Satan, right? 

Miranda

Yes. 

Paul

A cunning enemy that to catch a saint with saints does be thy hook. Now I’m calling myself a saint. Wow. 

Miranda

Right? 

Stefan

Well this is, we the play isn’t over yet. And so that I Yes, you, I think you’ve picked up on a moment of his ego, right? Where he’s had a moment of like, crap, who am I? What? And then he kind of, well, it’s a bit of a malvo moment. 

Miranda

Totally. 

Stefan

Just a just a a a kind of like to catch a saint saint me. 

Paul

Yeah. 

Stefan

So, and then what’s his revelation once he realizes I’m a saint and they sent a saint to tempt me. 

Paul

So wait a minute, is there a shift here? Am I saying, oh, wait a minute, because earlier I said, whose fault is this hers or mine? Am I now saying, oh, wait a minute, it’s neither of us. It’s Satan, it’s the devil, it’s his fault. Is that what I’m saying here? 

Stefan

I don’t mind that at all. As long as you recognize that it’s a lie. 

Paul

Do I need to recognize that right now? 

Stefan

No, but no, you don’t have to write, you need to say the words like they’re true is another way to look at it. Right? Just say the words like. 

Paul

Oh, cunning enemy. That to catch a saint with saint, thus be thy hook. Most dangerous is that temptation that does God us on sin in loving virtue. 

Yeah. That’s not my fault. It’s his 

never could. And he knew that the, the trumpet couldn’t get me, never could the trumpet with all her double vigor art and nature once stir my temper. But this virtuous made subdue me quite, 

I just want, I just wanted Miranda and Stefan and Charlotte too. 

Which, which track is better for this train to go on? Is he saying it’s Satan’s fault or is he calling himself the cunning enemy? No, he is not calling himself the cunning enemy, is he? 

Miranda

No, no, that’s Satan. That’s Satan to, to be, it feels as though he’s, he’s, he’s sort of danced up to the edge of a real, real self-knowledge here, real, a real revelation about himself. And he distances himself with the, you know, this sort of philosophizing, oh, cunning enemy, you know, and he’s back to Teca a saint. And most dangerous is that temptation, et cetera. I don’t know if that if feels resonates at all, but I, I feel as he’s sort of distancing himself from the revelation he’s not quite ready to have, because. 

Paul

That’s, that’s different than how I played it before I played it that I was still feeling, I was still chastising myself. But now maybe I’m using this as some sort of out like, well, wait a minute. Oh wait a minute. It’s not my fault Satan’s doing this. 

Miranda

Interesting. Sure. I long, I love the way you played it before too. 

Stefan

I did love the way you played it before. Yeah. There, there was a kind of, you were lacerating yourself a little bit before. Yeah. Like you were in a new place. The only thing I would say, Paul, is arrive in a new place by the end of the speech. It’s not a full on big old word of Magner Reis. There’s not a full on like Adi Oedipus moment of like, whoa. But I think it was a moment of like, oh fuck. Right? Up until now, I always wondered how people fell for people. And now I realize crap, he needs to end in an oh crap moment and a, and a and in a, a, a, a disconcerted moment rather than a Well now I understand. I’ve solved it. They sent a saint and I’m fine. Yeah. 

Miranda

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So. 

Paul

It is, it is, I’m blaming Satan and I’m also saying, I damn, I can’t believe I fell for that. I cannot believe, look at me, look at where I am now. 

Stefan

And, and, and, and another look at this. Satan won. 

Paul

Satan won. 

Stefan

Like up until now I wonder like, how could you people, and now I realize, crap, I fell for a girl. It was a saint, but I’m in a new place as well. 

Yeah. It’s gotta be an oh shit recognition rather than a Oh, I’ve solved it, I’m fine. 

Miranda

Right. Didn’t see that coming. Yeah, that’s. 

Stefan

A great, yeah. Didn’t see that coming. 

Paul

It’s even more complicated than I thought. Yeah. 

Stefan

Sorry. 

Paul

I dig it. I love this. 

Stefan

Hey, my loves I, this was again, the greatest two hours. 

Miranda

Oh, thank you all. 

Stefan

So who’s available on Thursday? 

Charlotte

I think it’s Rachel and Paul. 

Miranda

I, I’m too, I’m on for the next, you know, I was on for the 17th. This Thursday is the 31st, so I’m here. So. 

Stefan

We’re gonna play again. And I’m. 

Paul

Reading, I’m reading Isabella and you are reading Angelo. Yeah. 

Miranda

And. 

Paul

Rachel is. 

Stefan

I have no problem with that. Thank you guys. Any other questions or comments? Miranda, welcome. What a joy. Really. 

Miranda

Oh, my pleasure. Thank you. 

I quick p quick pedantic word. How do we, how are we pronouncing the word? E r r? 

Paul

You tell us. 

Miranda

I I typically go for er, you know, er rather than air. But, but I, you know, I don’t wanna mess anybody up. So, so I think, I think, Isabella, I noticed this because I’m the. 

Charlotte

I’m in the air camp. 

Miranda

Well then you, you make the call. 

Charlotte

I mean that just, I, you know, you. 

Miranda

Make the call girlfriend because you’re the one who has the speaker. Is there. 

Charlotte

An actual way to say it? I don’t know. 

Miranda

Pardon me? 

Charlotte

Like, neither, neither. Or is there an actual, like, acceptable way to say it? 

Miranda

I, I think that either is acceptable, but I, I think because, because it, it, there is a word air a i r that also isn’t Shakespeare. Typically folks tend to tend to go with er. But again, I don’t wanna, I don’t wanna mess up. 

Charlotte

I’m Canadian, British, so I say things differently like. 

Miranda

The sun, Sean, so, or. 

Stefan

Or works. 

Miranda

R works. Alright. If it doesn’t mess you up, Charlotte No, you get, you get to make that call. 

Stefan

I have to actually jump on another call. 

Miranda

Yes. Good luck with your trip tomorrow. Have a great week everyone. Thank guys. 

Stefan

Thank you. Yeah, have a great week. We’ll see you guys on Thursday who can be there. 

Miranda

I’ll see you on the 31st. Thank you. 

Stefan

Thank you Charlotte. See. 

Miranda

You. Thank you Paul. Thanks Charlotte. Thanks everyone. Bye. Bye. 

Stefan

Guys.